participle verbial

Question

All the Czech who are 15 years old or more proving their identity with the same document will come into effect in 2009.

This sentence has the same structure as below:

(Somebody doing something) will come into force in 2009.
Using an anticipatory subject: 'it', it will be:
It will come into effect in 2009.
So I think my sentence is grammatically correct.

All the Czech who are 15 years old or more proving their identity with the same document = subject.
proving their identity with the same document = participle verbial.
All the Czech who are 15 years old or more = ?

Thanks for any comments.

BarbaraPA · Accepted Answer

This was very, very hard to read. Eventually I got it, through your explanation, but is sounded like "the Czechs" are what will come effect, not the proving of their identity. The "who are 15 years old or more proving their identity" sounded like it was modifying the people.

"the same document" - that's going to be a very, very well used document.

"15 years old or more" - try at least 15 years old, or 15 years old or older.

However, if I got to write it from scratch, I'd start with: Starting in 2009, all Czechs who are at least 15 years of age will use the same type of document to verify their identity.

Clive · Answer

Hi,

All the Czech who are 15 years old or more proving their identity with the same document will come into effect in 2009.

Sorry, but this is an awkward and unclear sentence. Let me begin by rewording it to say what I think you mean. I'll still try to keep your words as much as possible.

For all Czechs who are 15 years old or more, proving their identity with a standard document will come into effect in 2009.

Much of the awkwardness comes from the idea of (Somebody doing something) will come into force in 2009. I wouldn't entirely say it's invariably wrong, but the common, normal approach is For somebody, (doing something) will come into force in 2009. People don't come into force, things (eg laws, rules, regulations, procedures) come into force.

eg instead of 'All students writing the exam will be necessary', say 'For all students, writing the exam will be necessary.'

Best wishes, Clive

Inchoateknowledge · Answer

Firstly, I thank you both.
Secondly,I would like to give my idea about what Clive wrote: "People don't come into force, things (eg laws, rules, regulations, procedures) come into force." I know.

For me, (somebody doing something) constitutes an act, and this act I meant will come into effect.

What about this sentence:

His confessing to having made a mistake will be appreciated?

Should my sentence have been "All Czechs', who are 15 at least , proving their identity with a standard doc ... ?

CalifJim · Answer

Oh, my goodness! Even though sometimes certain structures are grammatically possible, they are not at all preferred from a purely stylistic point of view.

First of all, the use of a gerund as a subject ("proving") is not at all usual when the gerund is embedded in such a heavy clause. (A heavy clause is a complex clause with a lot of words.) The reason is that they are so difficult to understand. The subject of the gerund is therefore usually just one unmodified word or two. The simpler Czech's proving their identity might better serve as a gerundial subject, for example.
Secondly, the proving of one's identity is not really what is coming into effect. It is in all probability a law or a requirement which is coming into effect. requirement for ... to ... or requirement that ... or law requiring that ... is a better construction. So the real intent of the sentence, I think, is

The requirement for all Czechs who are fifteen years of age or older to prove their identity with such a document will come into effect in 2009.

But even this can probably be further improved.

Beginning in 2009, all Czechs who have reached the age of fifteen will be required to prove their identity with this document.

And I'm sure even more rephrasings are possible.

But to return to your original concern, a structure may be theoretically possible and yet confusing to native speakers because of the internalized set of probabilities that native speakers 'carry in their heads' about what the usual and expected pattern of those structures should be. Unusual patterns might be expected in poetry, for example, but the same patterns would be bewildering in a newspaper account.

CJ

Milky · Answer

<Oh, my goodness! Even though sometimes certain structures are grammatically possible, they are not at all preferred from a purely stylistic point of view.>

Indeed. I advise using the term "grammatically probable".

participle verbial

Top answer

Get the Weekly English Kit 📬

Related Questions