Parenthetical element

Question

I was told that when a parenthetical element follows a coordinating conjunction used to connect two independent clauses, we do put a comma in front of the parenthetical element.

eg. 1) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league, and even though they picked up several promising rookies, they expect to be there again next year. (no comma after 'and')

2) The Red Sox were leading the league at the end of May, but of course, they always do well in the spring. (no comma after 'but')

What should I do if there is no comma before 'and'? Is it okay to place a comma after 'and'?

1) The music teacher and, of course, the football coach are married. (Assuming that this sentence makes sense)

Inchoateknowledge · Accepted Answer

I was told that when a parenthetical element follows a coordinating conjunction used to connect two independent clauses, we do put a comma in front of the parenthetical element.
If there is an embedded interrupter in a clause, I set off them by a set of commas, dashes or parentheses.

eg. 1) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league, and, I would place a comma here even though they picked up several promising rookies, they expect to be there again next year. (no comma after 'and')

2) The Red Sox were leading the league at the end of May, but(,) of course(,) they always do well in the spring. (no comma after 'but')

What should I do if there is no comma before 'and'? Is it okay to place a comma after 'and'?

1) The music teacher, and(,) of course(,) the football coach are married. (Assuming that this sentence makes sense)
'of course' is a weak parenthetical element, so I would not insist on using the commas here

Aperisic · Answer

Ignorant88
I was told that when a parenthetical element follows a coordinating conjunction used to connect two independent clauses, we do put a comma in front of the parenthetical element.

1) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league, and even though they picked up several promising rookies, they expect to be there again next year. (no comma after 'and')

2) The Red Sox were leading the league at the end of May, but of course, they always do well in the spring. (no comma after 'but')

What should I do if there is no comma before 'and'? Is it okay to place a comma after 'and'?

3) The music teacher and, of course, the football coach are married. (Assuming that this sentence makes sense)

Unfortunately there is no general answer to your question. You have to follow what is where in your sentence to decide to use a comma or not.

Every time you change a regular word order for example noun/pronoun + verb + object + location... is a moment when you may think about a comma. Every time you have two or more independent clauses connected a comma is possible as well.

But whether you will or not place a comma depends almost without exception on what you are writing. Unfortunately, in school nobody cares much to teach you how to think about the problem, they want you to follow their guidelines. The writing is not in what you must do, it is in what you can do.

So I'll do here for you a strict flow of thoughts, the best I could, on what you can (or maybe cannot

) do with your examples.

1) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league, and even though they picked up several promising rookies, they expect to be there again next year. (no comma after 'and')

first element you want to separate is and. Now, to which part of the sentence that and belongs to? To check we delete the addition first

1a) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league they expect to be there again next year.

the structure is lost

1b) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league and they expect to be there again next year.

this is a starter and we need no comma to separate the two clauses

1c) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league and (even though/although they picked up several promising rookies) they expect to be there again next year.

this is what we have added to make the sentence more lively

1d) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league and, even though they picked up several promising rookies, they expect to be there again next year.

this is the final touch

It is possible to place a comma before and but if you do so you have to think about 1b) solution, If you cannot place one comma there, you cannot place it in the final sentence either.

However, for me this version

1b1) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league, and they expect to be there again next year.

would be possible if and only if by a comma you want to stress a disappointment, or you want to separate two years: this year season and the next one, or you want to say this is what happened, but the next sentence is my prediction, or you want to give an order and to stress that the situation will not likely change any next year etc: and = unfortunately; and = in the next season; and = to my prediction; and = and again in one more year.

However, if this sentence is given as an example without a context, there is no reason to place a comma before and. I hold this very strongly.

2) The Red Sox were leading the league at the end of May, but of course, they always do well in the spring.

but of course is a very complex example. You have generally only two options

, but, of course, (or But, of course,)
, but of course

But of course,
, but of course,

but

of course

no comma

but

no comma

course

they lead as they use to

course

but

It looks impossible, but of course, as I told you, that is true.

as I told you

It looks impossible, but of course (as I told you) that is true.

It looks impossible, but of course that is true.

It looks impossible, but (of course) that is true.

It looks impossible, but that is true.

It looks impossible. That is true.

One of the prominent conflicts with tradition is a struggle with arranged marriages versus marriages for love, but of course, being set in pre-revolutionary time, it was an individual struggle.

for any reason

,but, of course,

but, of course,

but

of course

The situation is very difficult, but of course I'll do it.

of course

I'll do it

of course = without any doubt

but of course

but, of course, bla bla bla bla bla bla.

, of course,

But of course,

But, of course,

But of course

But of course, within a few years, nobody rode horses except for sport.
But of course we remember his prescience on larger, more substantial matters as well.
But, of course, secrecy puts limits on that.

, of course,

Ignorant88 · Answer

Thanks for your reply~

But example 1: "The Tigers~" and example 2: "The Red Sox~" are based on advices from Willim Strunk's Element of Style. The text states that a comma should not be placed after 'and' in example 1 and after 'but' in example 2. Of course styles differ but if one follows the rules mentioned in the Element of Style, and assuming that examples 1 and 2 are correct, what should be done for "The music teacher' example"?

Could the 'of course' be surrounded by commas because the 'and' does not connect two independent clauses, but a compound object or should I leave out commas altogether? I guess my question in general is what should I do when the 'and' does not connect two independent clauses.

Thanks~~

Aperisic · Answer

Ignorant88
Thanks for your reply~

But example 1: "The Tigers~" and example 2: "The Red Sox~" are based on advices from Willim Strunk's Element of Style. The text states that a comma should not be placed after 'and' in example 1 and after 'but' in example 2. Of course styles differ but if one follows the rules mentioned in the Element of Style, and assuming that examples 1 and 2 are correct, what should be done for "The music teacher' example"?

Could the 'of course' be surrounded by commas because the 'and' does not connect two independent clauses, but a compound object or should I leave out commas altogether? I guess my question in general is what should I do when the 'and' does not connect two independent clauses.

Thanks~~

The rules are as I told you. I showed you as well what you can consider to do in case of style. 3rd example is too simple to follow any general style rules. And the rules say to surround of course with commas disregarding anything else first.

So if you follow what I said I don't think anybody will consider your solutions wrong. From that point of view 3rd example is fine and correct. Be very careful always and always and always to make a correct grammar sentence and then to think about the style. Always and without an exception.

If you go into style, you go into a minefield... There are not that many rules within styles - it is all about the feelings that are somehow condensed into a rule.

For me this example

1) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league, and even though they picked up several promising rookies, they expect to be there again next year.

is grammatically incorrect because and a comma before and should not be there. For stylistic reasons it is however possible to shift a comma from and, to ,and - and there you are. This comma (,)and is borrowed from this and(,) , and I agree that there could be a stylistic reason to do so.

1-right) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league and, even though they picked up several promising rookies, they expect to be there again next year.

1-left) The Tigers spend much of the season at the bottom of the league, and even though they picked up several promising rookies, they expect to be there again next year.

but first you have to understand the origin and the concept of commas before you do that. There is no way that you can write the full sentence in 1) on the top of your head without a careful examination where is what.

Placing a comma after and and after but is not any kind of error in any particular sense. It could be the preference for a writer, but not the error. Trust me on that.

To borrow this comma and, and shift it to ,and every time is not any kind of rule either. It is different in each particular case.

If the samples 1) 2) and 3) are given without as detailed explanations as I've done here then the author assumes a very high level of grammar understanding. He tries to explain when we can defeat the grammar rules. But, please be sure that you clearly understand ALL grammar rules before you go into any stylistic changes.

Aperisic · Answer

Ignorant88
Thanks for your reply~

But example 1: "The Tigers~" and example 2: "The Red Sox~" are based on advices from Willim Strunk's Element of Style. The text states that a comma should not be placed after 'and' in example 1 and after 'but' in example 2. Of course styles differ but if one follows the rules mentioned in the Element of Style, and assuming that examples 1 and 2 are correct, what should be done for "The music teacher' example"?

Could the 'of course' be surrounded by commas because the 'and' does not connect two independent clauses, but a compound object or should I leave out commas altogether? I guess my question in general is what should I do when the 'and' does not connect two independent clauses.

Thanks~~

Of course not to forget

2) The Red Sox were leading the league at the end of May, but of course, they always do well in the spring.

I cannot defend, even within style, and I did some analysis to see if it is used and definitely - it is not used.

2 used as) The Red Sox were leading the league at the end of May, but of course they always do well in the spring.

if there is no comma after but there is no comma after course as well.

However be careful, my analysis could be too strong for what author wanted to say. Maybe he just gave an example how to place comma before and after but and did not care much about the rest of the sentence.

Still, regarding the style never say never, look at the excellent sample

These companies are famous for their achievement in the field: AMD, Cisco, Dell, Egenera, HP, IBM, Mellanox, Network Appliance, Novell, Red Hat, SGI, Sun, Unisys, Veritas, Voltaire, and of course, XenSource.

Aperisic · Answer

Of course I should start all with answering your question:

The fact that you should avoid a comma after and and but looks very natural within the style because and and but are separators for themselves that are weaker than a comma, so if you place one after and and but you may lose the softness of the conjunctions.

Second, in case of and you try to continue something but then interrupt it with a comma.

In case of but you try to discontinue something but then you interrupt it again with a comma, not to mention that one comma usually precedes but.

But, this is what we wish to achieve if we can. We do not have to.

Aperisic · Answer

I found this example in a book of style

Central to this argument is the contention that Tristram Shandy, and more specifically the character of Dr Slop, embodies Sterne's reaction to the advance of technology in Britain.

If you delete the addition

Central to this argument is the contention that Tristram Shandy embodies Sterne's reaction to the advance of technology in Britain.

you have a perfect sentence so in this case to place a comma before and follows just the ordinary rule of separating intervening parenthesis with commas.

Anonymous · Answer

First, I don't believe you answered the question that was asked. The examples he gave before that were absolutely correct. There is to be no comma used after the conjunctions. That's a pretty basic rule. His question was as follows: "What should I do if there is no comma before 'and'? Is it okay to place a comma after 'and'?" Then he gave the following example with your reply:
1) The music teacher, and(,) of course(,) the football coach are married. (Assuming that this sentence makes sense)
'of course' is a weak parenthetical element, so I would not insist on using the commas here.
He definitely gave a wrong example for the question he really has, because, you're right, you wouldn't use a comma before "and" in that example at all. And "of course" is weak, so you may not want to use it there. I think the real question is what if it the sentence was as follows: The Tigers are great and[,] of course, so are the Chiefs.
Now, again, you may say "of course" is weak, but that is not the question at all here. The question is since no comma is necessary before "and" because they are two short and balanced independent clauses, could you use the comma after "and"? And his question stems from the following rule of NOT using the comma: "When a parenthetical element - an interjection, adverbial modifier, or even an adverbial clause - follows a coordinating conjunction used to connect two independent clauses, we do not put a comma in front of the parenthetical element."
Hopefully that makes sense because I, too, would like to know the answer to the question. I have that issue come up all of the time since I am a court reporter.
Thank you.

Clive · Answer

Hi,

I'm sorry that I don't have time to deal with the details of your query. However, I'd like to quickly and briefly ask you this about your role as a reporter of what is actually said in court.

Would it be a valid approach for you simply to use commas based on whether the speaker did or didn't actually pause while saying sentences such as your examples? What I am getting at is this. To what extent do you see it as your job to 'clean up' the speaker's grammar?

I'd be very interested in your comments.

Clive

Anonymous · Answer

Anonymous:

In response to your last question about "we do not put a comma in front of the parenthetical element" it merely means to place the comma in front of the coord. conjunction. "I went to the store, and although I didn't want to, I bought my mother a pack of cigarettes." The reason is because you have to independent clauses involved and a comma would be naturally in place before the conjunction without the parenthetical element so an additional comma appears ( I guess, excessive).

Now, if the same scenario was in play EXCEPT the second clause was dependent or a phrase, the comma would be placed AFTER the conjunction to set off the parenthetical element. "I went to the store and, although I didn't want to, stole some candy. In this example, the conjunction is needed. If it was set off with the parenthetical element: I went to the store, stole some candy. It wouldn't make sense.

The earlier example at least allows for two coherent sentences.

I hope this helps.

Parenthetical element

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