On condtition he attend

Question

I've got an advanced group of translation and interpreting students.

This came up today from the London Times:-
"the judge ordered that he attend a community training course".

I don't need to debate that this is bona fide English, thank you. However, a student asked "why not 'he ****'?"

Any assistance from colleagues in different time zones on how to explain this to the student, to let me go to bed without trawling the grammar books, most gratefully received and I'll owe you one.

Cheers
DC

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I've got an advanced group of translation and interpreting students. This came up today from the London Times:- "the judge ... student, to let me go to bed without trawling the grammar books, most gratefully received and I'll owe you one.[/nq]
I'm going to take a guess at this, and risk getting jumped on by Einde or Django. To my ear, "attends" implies a past tense, as in "he attends community training courses", while "attend" implies a future tense. He is expected to attend next week, not "attends next week".

Cringing in the expectation of brickbats..

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I've got an advanced group of translation and interpreting students. ... grammar books, most gratefully received and I'll owe you one.[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm going to take a guess at this, and risk getting jumped on by Einde or Django. To my ear, ... a future tense. He is expected to attend next week, not "attends next week". Cringing in the expectation of brickbats..[/nq]
No brickbats from me John, thanks for your idea, I suspect the word 'subjuctive' may come up soon ...
DC

Usenet · Answer

Django Cat wrote on 14 Jul 2004:
[nq:1]No brickbats from me John, thanks for your idea, I suspect the word 'subjuctive' may come up soon ...[/nq]
Yes, "subjunctive" is the answer to your question. It's a hypothetical.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I've got an advanced group of translation and interpreting students. This came up today from the London Times:- "the judge ... let me go to bed without trawling the grammar books, most gratefully received and I'll owe you one. Cheers DC[/nq]
Being a student of English I would feel fully satisfied with a bit simpler explanation of this grammar problem. I would say that the verb in its infinitive form after 'he' in this very case is a result of omitting 'should' which... should otherwise be used. Needless to say, 'should' is always followed by an infinitive.
Regards, Mike
PS. Franke aka 'CC', did you get my e-mail?
PS.2. Sorry for priving here

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I've got an advanced group of translation and interpreting students. ... grammar books, most gratefully received and I'll owe you one.[/nq]
[nq:1]Being a student of English I would feel fully satisfied with a bit simpler explanation of this grammar problem. I ... a result of omitting 'should' which... should otherwise be used. Needless to say, 'should' is always followed by an infinitive.[/nq]
"Should" isn't necessary here and hasn't been omitted because, as Franke explained, this is a subjunctive - a tense used fairly rarely in Britain nowadays, except in more formal English. It is, I understand, more common in the US.
We still find examples of the subjunctive in some standard phrases such as "*** bless you".
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"Should" isn't necessary here and hasn't been omitted because, as Franke explained, this is a subjunctive - a tense used ... US. We still find examples of the subjunctive in some standard phrases such as "*** bless you". Regards, Einde O'Callaghan[/nq]
Undoubtedly you - English teachers - are right, but from a foreign student's point of view it may be easier to understand if the following problem was explained in my way. I wanted to point out that "should" wasn't mistakenly omitted here but may (or may not) be found in this construction right before a verb and this is why the verb must be used in infinitive. We can use the same construction without "should" (fully aware omitting it) but the verb must remain in infinitive. Thus, what we obtain is: "...that he attend...". I hope I'm right.
Regards, Mike

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"Should" isn't necessary here and hasn't been omitted because, as ... standard phrases such as "*** bless you". Regards, Einde O'Callaghan[/nq]
[nq:1]Undoubtedly you - English teachers - are right, but from a foreign student's point of view it may be easier ... verb must remain in infinitive. Thus, what we obtain is: "...that he attend...". I hope I'm right. Regards, Mike[/nq]
In fact it looks like you're right Mike - COBUILD Grammar certainly bears you out:-
(after an example "He proposes that the governement should hold an enquiry")
"Note that when you leave out the modal, the verb in the reported clause still has the form it would have if the modal were present. This use of the base form is sometimes called the subjunctive." COBUILD Grammer p 325.

'Should' is a modal verb, and 'base form' is what COBUILD calls the infinitive without 'to'.
The original example was:-
"the judge ordered that he attend a community training course"

I don't hear a vast difference in:-
"the judge ordered that he should attend a community training course"

except maybe it's one more word than we need.
Sorted. This is the sort of thing that usually falls into the 'most students don't really need to know this' category, but given that these students are tyro translators I'll take it back to class next week.

Thanks Mike, Franke, Einde and John, have a good weekend.

Django

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"Should" isn't necessary here and hasn't been omitted because, as ... subjunctive in some standard phrases such as "*** bless you".[/nq]
[nq:1]Undoubtedly you - English teachers - are right, but from a foreign student's point of view it may be easier ... but the verb must remain in infinitive. Thus, what we obtain is: "...that he attend...". I hope I'm right.[/nq]
Personally I'm in awe of those who can analyse sentence structures and apply words like 'subjunctive' and 'past pluperfect participle' to the dissected bits!
Anyhow, my dictionary has these hopefully edifying notes about subjunctives,
**
Usage. The subjunctive mood of the verb, once used extensively in English, has largely disappeared today. The subjunctive survives, though by no means consistently, in sentences with conditional clauses contrary to fact and in subordinate clauses after verbs like wish: If the house were nearer to the road, we would hear more traffic noise.
I wish I were in Florida.
The subjunctive also occurs in subordinate that clauses after a main clause expressing recommendation, resolution, demand, etc.: We ask that each tenant take(not takes) responsibility for keeping the front door locked.
It is important that only fresh spinach be (not is) used.

The subjunctive occurs too in some established or idiomatic expressions:
So be it.
Heaven help us.
*** rest ye merry, gentlemen.
Werein the phrase as it were, meaning "in a way,' is a subjunctive: His apology, as it were, sounded more like an insult.

**

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"Should" isn't necessary here and hasn't been omitted because, as ... standard phrases such as "*** bless you". Regards, Einde O'Callaghan[/nq]
[nq:1]Undoubtedly you - English teachers - are right, but from a foreign student's point of view it may be easier ... but the verb must remain in infinitive. Thus, what we obtain is: "...that he attend...". I hope I'm right.[/nq]
I would say that the rule of thumb you use (not grammatical rule, I hasten to add) depends to a certain extent on the language(s) spoken by your students. Since in many languages there is a subjunctive form (and in some, e.g. German, a subjunctive would often be used in this type of structure) this may be the easiest way for students to remember what to do.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"Should" isn't necessary here and hasn't been omitted because, as ... standard phrases such as "*** bless you". Regards, Einde O'Callaghan[/nq]
[nq:1]Undoubtedly you - English teachers - are right, but from a foreign student's point of view it may be easier ... be found in this construction right before a verb and this is why the verb must be used in infinitive.[/nq]
It's not the infinitive but the subjunctive form. The problem in English is that a lot of forms have fallen together and can't be distinguished by just looking at the word in isolation. I found some more examples here: http://www.ceafinney.com/subjunctive/excerpts.html

#begin quote
I suggest (that he leave).
I beg (that he return the money).
I demanded (that she give me her files).
We asked (that Marsha tell the truth).
Beth moved (that the meeting be adjourned).
I insist (that you be quiet).
I require (that term papers be turned in on time). #end quote
[nq:1]We can use the same construction without "should" (fully aware omitting it) but the verb must remain in infinitive. Thus, what we obtain is: "...that he attend...". I hope I'm right.[/nq]
You are certainly free to analyse a language in any manner you see fit, although conciseness of rules and minimum of exceptions are features usually considered better.

"If writers knew whose mouths would end up spewing out their works,

they'd cut off their hands." +-Gerard Depardieu, "Pure Formality"

On condtition he attend

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