Noun Clause

Question

Hi can someone clarify this sentence for me please.We all know that smith was a financial genius.Above in the sentence, " that smith was a financial genius" is this a noun clause or a relative clause?

Clive · Accepted Answer

We all know that Smith was a financial genius.

Above in the sentence, " that smith was a financial genius" is this a noun clause or a relative clause?

It's a clause that functions as a noun.
ie We all know something'.

Clive

RandomGuy · Answer

SuwitCeeAbove in the sentence, " that smith was a financial genius" is this a noun clause or a relative clause?

It's a content clause, acting as complement to the verb know. It's not a relative clause because the word that doesn't have an antecedent; it's just a meaningless marker of subordination. And “noun clause” isn't really an appropriate term. Very often content clauses can't be substituted with nouns, as in the following examples:

I'm glad that you could make it.
It is unfortunate that she lost her job.
I consider it unfair that she lost her job.
She informed me that she had lost her job.
The fact that they are married should make no difference.

Anonymous · Answer

Aspara GusIt's a content clause, acting as complement to the verb know.

"content clause

A clause, usually a noun clause, introduced by that.

That he can simply disappeared is unbelievable.
I don't believe (that) the police cannot trace him.

The term was introduced by Otto Jespersen and is not now in common use. A popular modern label is THAT-CLAUSE.

In one modern analysis which rejects the popular division of subordinate clauses into noun (nominal), adjectival (relative), and adverbial clauses, content clause includes not only noun clauses but such 'completing' clauses as

He's covered his tracks so well that the police cannot trace him."

[Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar.]

Fivejedjon · Answer

In the sentence SuwitCee asked about, 'noun clause; is not an inappropriate term, and it one which is used in many books available to learners.

RandomGuy · Answer

fivejedjonIn the sentence SuwitCee asked about, 'noun clause' is not an inappropriate term, ...

Of course it is, and also very misleading.

fivejedjon... and is one which is used in many books available to learners.

That is unfortunate.

SuwitCee · Answer

Thank you everyone. Should I label this as a "that clause" or a content clause" because I don't know what to tell my students

Could someone point me out to a good grammar book please.

RandomGuy · Answer

SuwitCeeShould I label this as a "that clause" or a content clause" because I don't know what to tell my students

‘(Declarative) Content clause’ is my recommendation. The subordinator that is usually optional, and in some cases it’s even excluded.

Anonymous · Answer

SuwitCeeThank you everyone. Should I label this as a "that clause" or a content clause" because I don't know what to tell my studentsCould someone point me out to a good grammar book please.

As you see there is a terminology fog here. There are different grammar schools that use different terms for the same grammar entity. My advice is that you should use your logic, first and foremost. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the term 'noun clause' if the that-clause, following a transitive verb, does the job of the object.

Fivejedjon · Answer

AnonymousAs you see there is a terminology fog here. There are different grammar schools that use different terms for the same grammar entity. My advice is that you should use your logic, first and foremost. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the term 'noun clause' if the that-clause, following a transitive verb, does the job of the object.

Precisely.

The school of grammar AG follows has some very interesting ideas, Unfrtunately for learners, it takes terminology that has been in use for many years, re-defines it, and then appears to insist that the old definitions are wrong. One result is that learners who have been taught the use of such expressions as 'noun phrase', 'subject; 'adverb', 'preposition', 'complement', 'function' (verb), and many others, may be told by followers of Theory X that they are wrong. Then, if they attempt to use the terminology in the new way in their work at school and in their examinations, they will be told they are wrong - and lose marks!

Those studying English grammar as a branch of linguistics need to know about recent grammar theories. However, for those wishing to learn how to communicate in English, a knowledge of the terminology of grammar is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If the teaching system used in their schools insists on learners labelling parts of speech and parts of a sentence, then they (the learners) would be wise to stick to the system in use in their schools.

To take a fairly simple example. I believe that there is no future tense in English and that will+ bare infinitive is merely one way in English of expressing the future. However, if a learner's teachers and course books refer to will + bare infinitive as the future tense, then we will only confuse that learner if we insist that the teachers and course books are wrong.

What is important for people wishing to communicate in English is that they produce acceptable language, not that they use labels in a way approved of by a particular grammarian - unless their teachers and examination markers demand this.

Anonymous · Answer

fivejedjonWhat is important for people wishing to communicate in English is that they produce acceptable language, not that they use labels in a way approved of by a particular grammarian - unless their teachers and examination markers demand this.

Yes, I have to admit that I'm a fan of his/her, i.e. A.G.'s posts. Indeed, they are sometimes eye-openers and persuasive. But what I don't like about her/his presentation is the way he/she is trying to impose the very formal academia-fueled metalanguage on the beginners and intermediate learners who barely differentiate form classes from function ones. One thing is to demonstrate your grammar-usage interpretation, quite different thing is to impose it.

Noun Clause

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