Noticed - tenses

Question

Hi, a question:I am told: "John has a tattoo".I answer:1. "Oh! I haven't noticed until now."2. "Oh! I didn't notice until now."3. "Oh! I hadn't noticed until now."I am sure that at least one of the above is more preferable than the others, but are they all grammatical? Now is right this second. I am especially concerned about #1. Is it ungrammatical to say "I haven't noticed it until now" if now is truly right now?Thank you.

Doctor D · Accepted Answer

The grammar in a minute. Right now, it is the sense of what is being said that interests me.
I don't think you can say "notice" when you are not noticing it--you are being informed. So, the opening sentence should be "I just now noticed that John has a tattoo." If you want to use as the opening "I was told John had a tattoo," then you need to change the verb in the following sentences. For example: "I hadn't known that until now."

As to the grammar of the three example, I would not use the first. That suggests that you had a series of not noticing.
The second should be written "I didn't notice that before." (At some point in the past you had a chance to notice it but didn't.) This wording avoids the illogic of saying that didn't notice something in the past which ended in the present moment. The noticing should all be in the past.
The third is the best answer (with one small addition): "I hadn't noticed that until now." (You were noticing things in the past but that one fact you only now have seen.)

I hope this helps.

Anonymous · Answer

Hi Doctor D!

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply. I understand it and it is logical to me. But why then do people say:
"See that guy? Have you seen him before?"
"Him? No, I haven't seen him before."
(Clearly I've just seen him, so why is the present perfect used? Can the past perfect be used?)

"This is a fact."
"A fact! No way. I've never heard such rubbish before."
(Clearly, I've just heard rubbish, so why the past perfect? Can the past perfect be used as well?)

Doctor D · Answer

Okay, both these are present perfect. Past perfect uses "had" and treats events which began and concluded in the past.
He had tripped over the rake. (It is over and done with).
Present perfect deals with events that began in the past and still have a present effect or influence or they could be completed in the future.
He has lost his mind. (Perhaps he will find it tomorrow.)

Now for your examples:
I haven't seen him before. (I am seeing him now...so we have a present time link).
I have never heard such rubbish before. (You are telling me something that I now think is rubbish--so, again, a present time link).

Does this help?

Anonymous · Answer

Doctor DNow for your examples:I haven't seen him before. (I am seeing him now...so we have a present time link).I have never heard such rubbish before. (You are telling me something that I now think is rubbish--so, again, a present time link).Does this help?

Yes, thank you very much, it helps, but that "heard" example . . . Maybe I should have used a slightly different one. Someone tells me:
"You're a genius."
I say: "Wow, thank you, I've never heard that before."
But why is the present perfect okay here ("google books" gives many such examples that justify it)? If I've just been told that I am a genius, surely I've just heard it, right?

Do you see what I mean?

Doctor D · Answer

Here we go--you just heard that you are a genius in the present. So, again, your response is present perfect. To go with past perfect, we need to change the situation so the statement & response are completely in the past:

Jack told me that I was a genius. I had not heard that compliment before.

Anonymous · Answer

Excellent, thanks!

Noticed - tenses

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