Not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we fight (ex "Contractors"

Question

OT, but since the issue has been raised in this ng:

It's unfortunate that the OP of the famous Declaration of Arbroath extract "for as long as a hundred among us are left alive... It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself" seems to have encountered it only on a pub toilet door.

The Declaration of Arbroath is very well known to almost all Scots, and was a plea to the Pope to help Scotland in its struggle for independence from a settlement imposed on it by its powerful neighbour, England. Not for nothing was the English king's tomb later inscribed with the words "Scottorum malleus" (Hammer of the Scots). The Declaration, penned by the Abbot of Arbroath on behalf of the great barons of Scotland, argued Scotland's right to determine its own affairs, sought the Pope's support, but warned, in the famous quoted passage, that if that support wasn't forthcoming, Scotland would fight for its freedom. The Pope had earlier excommunicated Robert the Bruce, but the "Letter of the Barons" apparently achieved its purpose, for the Pope intervened with Edward of England, and recognised Bruce as Robert I of Scotland.

It is, though, interesting to read the full text in the light of developing events in Iraq:
(http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath english.html). Bush should have someone read it to him and explain the parallels. It is not, essentially, "anti-English" but anti- occupation, a protest against imposed outside government not supported by the people it was being imposed on, by a country which happened, obviously, to be England. And England, though for different reasons, had been behaving just as arrogantly and insensitively in Scotland as USA is in Iraq, but with slightly more legitimacy.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]OT, but since the issue has been raised in this ng: It's unfortunate that the OP of the famous Declaration ... no honest man gives up but with life itself" seems to have encountered it only on a pub toilet door.[/nq]
Do you have trouble reading or do you simply have an offensive personality?

Charles Riggs
My email address: chriggs/at/eircom/dot/net

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]It is, though, interesting to read the full text in the light of developing events in Iraq: (http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath english.html). Bush ... had been behaving just as arrogantly and insensitively in Scotland as USA is in Iraq, but with slightly more legitimacy.[/nq]
All well and good for the Scots to take against 'imposed outside government' since they sound so proud that, in their own words, "The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed," I mean, who was there first?
John Dean
Oxford

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]OT, but since the issue has been raised in this ... Though it does appear in such places in several premises.[/nq]
But the point isn't precisely where the quotation appears in whichever pub you have in mind, but the fact that the letter expresses the determination of a sovereign country to oppose its more powerful occupier. No doubt Edward would regard both Wallace's and Bruce's armies as "insurgents", as US spokespersons are describing those in Iraq who have been causing them some irritation of late.
[nq:1]Do you have trouble readingNo. I admit to some problems in unravelling your line of thought, though, in several of your contributions.[/nq]
or do you simply have an offensive

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]It is, though, interesting to read the full text in ... as USA is in Iraq, but with slightly more legitimacy.[/nq]
[nq:1]All well and good for the Scots to take against 'imposed outside government' since they sound so proud that, in their own words, "The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed," I mean, who was there first?[/nq]
I agree that the document is a bit shaky on the history side - the process of Scottish unification over the preceding 1000+ years doesn't support the claims you justifiably highlight. But it *is* sound on the contemporary determination to oppose the occupation and fight for independence, and many an Iraqi might list similar grievances...

As for who was there first, we have to start somewhere, I suppose, so what about getting all English, Scots, Irish, Spanish, Germans, etc., etc., out of "America"? Or, perish the thought, sending the Scots back to Ireland (or to Spain, or Greater Scythia)?

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]As for who was there first, we have to start somewhere, I suppose, so what about getting all English, Scots, Irish, Spanish, Germans, etc., etc., out of "America"? Or, perish the thought, sending the Scots back to Ireland (or to Spain, or Greater Scythia)?[/nq]
Edinburgh is a fascinating city, as I discovered again on my third visit. While I can see no problem with sending a few Scottish-Americans likeable people from the ones I've known to Ireland, please keep your own Scots in place. The Irish people will thank you too, from all I've heard. Unless, that is, they be like the pleasant and unassuming Chris Malcolm, which very few there are if the samples I've met are at all representative.

Charles Riggs
My email address: chriggs/at/eircom/dot/net

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Peccavi. Though it does appear in such places in several premises. But the point isn't precisely where the quotation appears ... mind, but the fact that the letter expresses the determination of a sovereign country to oppose its more powerful occupier.[/nq]
'The point' in the thread Jan and I were participating in was what you totally missed. Reading troubles on your part, I assume, since you must surely have sufficient intelligence for the job. Nationalistic zeal may have unbalanced your view that I could understand as well, even while never admiring such.
[nq:2]Do you have trouble reading[/nq]
[nq:1]No. I admit to some problems in unravelling your line of thought, though, in several of your contributions.[/nq]
So I see for two of them, anyway. I still hold that the probability is fairly high you have the intelligence for it, should you apply yourself.
[nq:1]or do you simply have an offensive[/nq]
[nq:2]personality?[/nq]
[nq:1]Not yet, but reading some of your posts might be useful should I wish to develop one. Your response is unpleasant and unhelpful. I can forgive the former.[/nq]
Unpleasantness often demands the same in return. Had you been reasonably pleasant and wholly truthful I know that's a lot to ask of certain people I'd have been my usual pleasant self when responding.

Charles Riggs
My email address: chriggs/at/eircom/dot/net

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Unpleasantness often demands the same in return. Had you been reasonably pleasant and wholly truthful I know that's a lot to ask of certain people I'd have been my usual pleasant self when responding.[/nq]
Whatever did you find unpleasant in the post which prompted your instant "Do you have trouble reading or do you simply have an offensive personality" contribution? Such a nasty little response suggests more about its writer than its target, IMHO - conveying an impression the above tends to strengthen.
What's this "wholly truthful" thing? Are you still harping on about my error (which I have already admitted, though it's hardly of fundamental importance in the context of the thread) about the precise position of the quotation in an Edinburgh pub?
And I hope most people would reject your assertion that unpleasantness "often demands" the same in return.
Re your second post to this thread, I merely refer you to John Dean's post to which I was replying (incidentally, light-heartedly, in case you thought otherwise), to the historical fact of the settlement into what is now Scotland of the Scots from Ireland c. 500AD, and to your own words which I quote above. Pleasant fellow that *I* am, I shall refrain from commenting on the sentence structures you employ, even though they are largely the cause of the difficulties in comprehension we have discussed elsewhere.

Not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we fight (ex "Contractors"

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