Noble mole

Question

Hello:Is the "cherish" in the first para a subjunctive (equivalent to "would cherish")?What is the real difference between a "wharf" and a "jetty?" I find "jetty" defined as "landing wharf," so ...Should you have pics thereof, that would be appreciatd ...Also, how this "noble mole" in NYC? What could this be?With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship. There is nothing surprising in this. If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.There now is your insular city of the Manhattoes, belted round by wharves as Indian isles by coral reefs?commerce surrounds it with her surf. Right and left, the streets take you waterward. Its extreme downtown is the battery, where that noble mole is washed by waves, and cooled by breezes, which a few hours previous were out of sight of land. Look at the crowds of water-gazers there.Melville, Moby , p. 1http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moby-/Chapter 1 Thanks.Marius Hancu

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1] With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship. There is nothing ... all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.[/nq]
Also, how about "in their degree?"
This must be old-fashioned by now ...

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Hello: Is the "cherish" in the first para a subjunctive (equivalent to "would cherish")?[/nq]
I don't think so.
[nq:1]What is the real difference between a "wharf" and a "jetty?" I find "jetty" defined as "landing wharf," so ...[/nq]
I think that in general a "jetty" is smaller than a "wharf". But some wharfs (wharves) are smaller than some jetties.

Just to confuse us all "jetty" is sometimes used to mean a "mole". (See below)
[nq:1]Should you have pics thereof, that would be appreciatd ...Wharfs (wharves):[/nq]
http://images.google.co.uk/images?gbv=2&hl=en&q=wharf&btnG=Search+Images Jetties:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=jetty&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
[nq:1]Also, how this "noble mole" in NYC? What could this be?[/nq]
A mole is "a protective structure of stone or concrete; extends from shore into the water to prevent a beach from washing away". http://www.onelook.com/?w=mole&ls=a
Here is an example of one built of stone:
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file thumbview approve/3213124/2/istockphoto 3213124 stone mole leading into the sea.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/3alurw
The word is also used to describe one of the substantial concrete walls that almost enclose a harbour leaving just a gap for ships and boats to enter and exit the harbour:
[nq:1] With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship. There is nothing ... of land. Look at the crowds of water-gazers there. Melville, Moby , p. 1 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moby-/Chapter 1 Thanks. Marius Hancu[/nq]
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Hello: Is the "cherish" in the first para a subjunctive (equivalent to "would cherish")? What is the real difference between a "wharf" and a "jetty?" I find "jetty" defined as "landing wharf," so ... Should you have pics thereof, that would be appreciatd ...[/nq]
I hesitate to offer a definition because my definition is how the word is currently used, and you are reading "Moby ".

A jetty is a construction of rocks or wood and pilings that extends out for a few hundred yards. It serves as a breakwater to calm the sea.
It's difficult to provide an image because the rock jetty just looks like a jumble of rocks, but here's one:
http://www.hoganphoto.com/Jetty At Low Tide b a .jpg and a more decorative view:
http://gallery.atbeach.com/pht/2/sunbathing northside ir jetty b.jpg

Here's a constructed jetty:
http://www.fremantleports.com.au/About/PhotoGallery/Looking south across the Oil Refinery Jetty and Kwinana Bulk Jetty rdax 1399x966.jpg

As you can see, ships anchor off of this one, but the purpose of it is to break up the water.
At least in Florida, one would not use a jetty as a landing wharf. Those ships tied up at the Fremantle jetty are there temporarily and will move to a wharf to unload or load cargo.
The meaning in "Moby " may be a different meaning.

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]What is the real difference between a "wharf" and a "jetty?" I find "jetty" defined as "landing wharf," so ... Should you have pics thereof, that would be appreciatd ...[/nq]
He tells you the wharves are like a belt. They don't stick out into the sea: they run around the seafront. They ARE the seafront, the quayside.

I had never heard 'jetty' being used as described by Duncanson/Cooper. My dictionary has, 'a construction built out into the water to protect a harbour, stretch of coast, or riverbank'. We always called those things 'groynes'. ('Groins' in the US, I gather.)
But 'jetty' also means 'a landing stage or small pier', and that's the meaning I've always known. It might be small enough for kids to dive off, or big enough for passenger boats to tie up to, but it'd be far too flimsy for a cargo ship to use.
[nq:1]almost all men in their degree[/nq]
Presumably means 'irrespective of their class'. Another possible meaning might be, 'though to varying extents according to their education, their background, their imagination...'. The first meaning's more likely.
[nq:1]This must be old-fashioned by now ...[/nq]
Class? No, not yet. Not till this pub closes.
Peter

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Hello: Is the "cherish" in the first para a subjunctive ... Should you have pics thereof, that would be appreciatd ...[/nq]
[nq:1]I hesitate to offer a definition because my definition is how the word is currently used, and you are reading ... tied up at the Fremantle jetty are there temporarily and will move to a wharf to unload or load cargo.[/nq]
The jetties I'm aware of that's the label used on Ordnance Survey maps are like piers, and used mainly as passenger landing points; some were larger, though, and clearly used for heavier unloading (particularly of bulk goods).
There are some (were many more) in London, which reached out beyond the tidal flat so that one didn't need to use a boat to reach the shore at low tide.

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]What is the real difference between a "wharf" and a ... Should you have pics thereof, that would be appreciatd ...[/nq]
[nq:1]He tells you the wharves are like a belt. They don't stick out into the sea: they run around the ... enough for passenger boats to tie up to, but it'd be far too flimsy for a cargo ship to use.[/nq]
That is my understanding too.
The other point is that a wharf may stick out into the sea or other water or may be parallel to the shore. But a jetty (always?) sticks or juts out from the shore.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=jut
jut (v.)
"to protrude," c.1450, corruption of obsolete jet (see jetty).
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jut
jut verb, jut·ted, jut·ting, noun
?verb (used without object)
1. to extend beyond the main body or line; project;protrude (often fol. by out): The narrow strip of land juts out into the bay.
?noun

2. something that juts out; a projecting or protrudinpoint.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=jetty
jetty
1418, from O.Fr. jetee "a jetty, a projecting part of a building," from fem. pp. of jeter "to throw" (see jet (v.)). Notion is of a structure "thrown out" past what surrounds it.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jetty
jet·ty1 noun, plural -ties, verb, -tied, -ty·ing.
?noun

1. a pier or structure of stones, piles, or the like,projecting into the sea or other body of water to
protect a harbor, deflect the current, etc.

2. a wharf or landing pier.
3. the piles or wooden structure protecting a pier.
4. Also, jutty. an overhang, as of an upper story beyond alower.
?verb (used with object)

5. to construct (part of a building) so that it projectsbeyond lower construction; jutty.

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]A jetty is a construction of rocks or wood and pilings that extends out for a few hundred yards. It serves as a breakwater to calm the sea.[/nq]
Not necessarily that far. Here is a picture of a jetty on the island of Santorini: http://tinyurl.com/2z8cyz

John Varela
Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Hello: Is the "cherish" in the first para a subjunctive (equivalent to "would cherish")? What is the real difference between a "wharf" and a "jetty?"[/nq]
I use this meaning for jetty: ". a pier or structure of stones, piles, or the like, projecting into the sea or other body of water to protect a harbor, deflect the current, etc." But with a few small changes I suppose you could get on and off a boat there, so that would make it a wharf.
[nq:1]I find "jetty" defined as "landing wharf," so ... Should you have pics thereof, that would be appreciatd ... Also, ... all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.[/nq]
I think cherish is a regular indicative verb. ...almost all men cherish the same feelings....
I think "in their degree" means each man to his own degree, to his own level of cherishing.
[nq:1]There now is your insular city of the Manhattoes, belted round by wharves as Indian isles by coral reefs?commerce surrounds ... the streets take you waterward. Its extreme downtown is the battery, where that noble mole is washed by waves, and[/nq]
It's called the battery, it's still called Battery Park, because of the battery of guns that was there, to repel invaders. Maybe by the Dutch in anticipation of the British, or something later than that.
[nq:1]cooled by breezes, which a few hours previous were out of sight of land. Look at the crowds of water-gazers there.[/nq]
I didn't know a mole was a jetty, but if it goes out into the water, it's purpose is to keep the waves' component that is partially parallel to the shore, the waterfront, from disturbing the ships that are docked, or in other places from washing away the sand. Jetties are all over the place on oceans and seas.
Come to think of it, I have a picture from 1936 that my father took of the Tel Aviv jetty. It was a dock, where freight could be loaded and unloaded. It's been rebuilt since then. So I should have recognized that meaning in the first place.
[nq:1]Melville, Moby , p. 1 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moby-/Chapter 1 Thanks. Marius Hancu[/nq]
If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]What is the real difference between a "wharf" and a ... Should you have pics thereof, that would be appreciatd ...[/nq]
[nq:1]He tells you the wharves are like a belt. They don't stick out into the sea: they run around the seafront.[/nq]
No, no, certainly not wrt Manhattan Island, which Melville is talking about. Each wharf sticks out into the water, about as far as the length of the ships it is intended for, or at least as far as the last gangplank and hatch.
What makes it a belt is that there are so many of them. So they are a belt like >>..>>. There were 40 or 50 in 1970. There had been a lot more, all the way up the East River to 50th St. or so and a lot up the Hudson river too, iirc up to the 50's. Now there are fewer, but more built in Brooklyn, Staten Island, and New Jersey.

As ships got bigger, longer, wider, and had a greater draught(?), they needed longer wharfs and needed to be farther out into the river where the water was deeper. So every 50 or 100 years, the space between piers is filled in, usually with rock from newly-dug building foundation holes, and a new set of piers is built further out.

So if you look of a map of the tip of Manhattan, on the east side it appears that the street closest to the water was Pearl St. After the old wharfs were filled in, and a new street built, the street closest to the water was named Water Street. Then more fill and we had Front St. You can see the latest set of piers at
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps result.php?q1=Battery+Park+NY+NY

If you creep up north on the west side, you can see how West St. used to be the border of the island. Everything west of that was built since 1970, including Battery Park City, all on landfill. But the old piers are no longer being replace by new piers. Instead the Hudson River has been cleaned up to where it's good for swimming, and were it not for the current and the tides, I guess more people would be doing so.
If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]He tells you the wharves are like a belt. They don't stick out into the sea: they run around the seafront.[/nq]
[nq:1]No, no, certainly not wrt Manhattan Island, which Melville is talking about. Each wharf sticks out into the water, about ... What makes it a belt is that there are so many of them. So they are a belt like >>..>>.[/nq]
Oh OK. Sorry. So, like the Statue of Liberty's Alice band. ...
[nq:1]If you creep up north on the west side, you can see how West St.[/nq]
...
Why 'creep'?
Pete

Noble mole

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