No one has yet to do... -- double negation?

Question

Dear AUE:I have recently encountered the following passage."No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early symptoms in men. But since most of the previous research on heart attacks has been done on men, McSweeney says, "we assume the typical picture is more characteristic of men. This is the first time we have been able to get a typical picture of women."(quoted from http://health.discovery.com/news/healthscout/article.jsp?aid=516951&tid=30) What I'm curious about is the first sentence "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early symptoms in men."I understand that "have yet to do..." means "haven't done...yet". If that's correct, the above sentence can be paraphrased as: "no one hasn't compared these findings to possible early symptoms in men", and it doesn't sound correct, like double negation cases. The intended meaning seems to be: "no one has compared these findings to possible early symptoms in men."I was wondering if this sentence pattern, i.e., "no one has yet to do...," is supposed to be grammatically correct. I found lots of cases like this on the Internet, so it is at least quite prevalent.If this sentence pattern has been discussed before, could you refer me to an archive?Thank you in advance for your help.CuriousT

Usenet · Accepted Answer

CT wrote on 22 May 2004:
[nq:1]Dear AUE: I have recently encountered the following passage. "No one has yet to compare these findings[/nq]
"No one has compared these findings"
or
"{As yet / So far / To date}, no one has compared these findings"
[nq:1]What I'm curious about is the first sentence "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early symptoms in men."[/nq]
It's wrong.
[nq:1]I understand that "have yet to do..." means "haven't done...yet". If that's correct, the above sentence can be paraphrased as: "no one hasn't compared these findings[/nq]
No, but it can be paraphrased as "No one has compared these findings".
[nq:1]to possible early symptoms in men", and it doesn't sound correct,[/nq]
It isn't.
[nq:1]like double negation cases. The intended meaning seems to be: "no one has compared these findings to possible early symptoms in men." I was wondering if this sentence pattern, i.e., "no one has yet to do...," is supposed to be grammatically correct.[/nq]
No.
[nq:1]I found lots of cases like this on the Internet, so it is at least quite prevalent. If this sentence pattern has been discussed before, could you refer me to an archive?[/nq]
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]CT wrote on 22 May 2004:[/nq]
[nq:2]Dear AUE: I have recently encountered the following passage. "No one has yet to compare these findings[/nq]
[nq:1]"No one has compared these findings"[/nq]
Not the same thing though. "No-one has yet to..." implies an expectation, or an exhortation that someone will, hopefully soon. I don't see why it's wrong, although I would agree there are clearly ways of expressing the same notion. I would probably say "There has yet to be a study comparing these findings...".
But either way, a "Double negative" ain't no reason to assume a positive.

Dylan

Usenet · Answer

Dylan Nicholson wrote on 22 May 2004:
[nq:2]CT wrote on 22 May 2004: "No one has compared these findings"[/nq]
[nq:1]Not the same thing though.[/nq]
It's a reasonable paraphrase even though it's not exactly the same in every respect.
[nq:1]"No-one has yet to..." implies an expectation, or an exhortation that someone will, hopefully soon.[/nq]
Perhaps.
[nq:1]I don't see why it's wrong,[/nq]
Try "No one has as yet compared these findings," or "We have yet to compare these findings," and then ask yourself again why it's wrong.
[nq:1]although I would agree there are clearly ways of expressing the same notion.[/nq]
Did you mean "there are "clearer ways" or "there are clearly other ways"?
[nq:1]I would probably say "There has yet to be a study comparing these findings...".[/nq]
Not the same thing though, to borrow an apt line from your post.
[nq:1]But either way, a "Double negative" ain't no reason to assume a positive.[/nq]
That may be true, but it seems non sequitur here.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Dear AUE: I have recently encountered the following passage. "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early ... curious about is the first sentence "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early symptoms in men."[/nq]
It presumably is referring to those who would normally be expected to make such a comparison, and means that all those who could be expected to have made such a comparison has done so, and that the findings are therefore available.

I don't think it's referring to the entire human race, in the expectation that every single person will make the comparison. The sub-set is implied.

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Usenet · Answer

Thank you for your replies, CyberCyber and Dylan.
[nq:1]Try "No one has as yet compared these findings," or "We have yet to compare these findings," and then ask yourself again why it's wrong.[/nq]
This kind of comparison was what made me doubt the correctness of the first sentence. The second one can be paraphrased as "we haven't compared these findings yet", right? So I thought the first one should be paraphrased as "no one hasn't compared these findings yet", which amounts to saying "everyone has compared these findings". This is clearly not what the author intended to say. Grammatically speaking, he/she should have written "No one has compared these findings to possible early symptoms in men yet." or "No one has yet compared these findings to possible early symptoms in men." Right?

But given how pervasive this usage seems to be, at least on the Internet, I thought it might have begun to be accepted as part of English usage.
Any thought?
CuriousT

Usenet · Answer

CT wrote on 22 May 2004:
[nq:1]Thank you for your replies, CyberCyber and Dylan.[/nq]
[nq:2]Try "No one has as yet compared these findings," or "We have yetto compare these findings," and then ask yourself again why it'swrong.[/nq]
[nq:1]This kind of comparison was what made me doubt the correctness ofthe first sentence. The second one can be paraphrased as "we haven't compared these findings yet", right?[/nq]
Yes.
[nq:1]So I thought the first one should be paraphrased as "no one hasn't compared these findingsyet", which amounts to saying "everyone has compared these findings".This is clearly not what the author intended to say.[/nq]
As Dylan said, a double negative doesn't necessarily make a positive, so it's best to stay away from that absurd formula and try to determine if it is at all possible, that is what the author intended to say when you come across such stuff.
[nq:1]Grammatically speaking, he/she should have written "No one has compared these findings to possible early symptoms in men yet." or "No one has yet compared these findings to possible early symptoms in men." Right?[/nq]
Something like that, yes.
[nq:1]But given how pervasive this usage seems to be, at least on the Internet, I thought it might have begun to be accepted as part of English usage. Any thought?[/nq]
Others seem to find it okay, I gather from reading a few of the other posts. I find it grammatically, stylistically, and structurally offensive, substandard, wrong, and whatever else negative one might be able to think of. There are, however, lots of other barbarisms that have gained what I consider dubious acceptability in contemporary Standard American English (I don't make judgments about BrE in any of its varieties because the BrE speakers here won't allow me to, which is a not unreasonable position on their part): others may accept them, but I don't.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.

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[nq:1]I have recently encountered the following passage. "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early symptoms in ... of men. This is the first time we have been able to get a typical picture of women." (quoted fromhttp://health.discovery.com/news/healthscout/article.jsp?aid=516951&tid=[/nq]
30)
[nq:1]What I'm curious about is the first sentence "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early symptoms ... be grammatically correct. I found lots of cases like this on the Internet, so it is at least quite prevalent.[/nq]
Interesting. I had glanced at the whole thread and had to go back to see what had happened. It looks like this writer and you say others are doing it as well combined two phrases:
No one has yet compared these... and
We have yet to compare these...
I think the similarity means they would slip by anybody's radar. But they're quite different, aren't they? The "yet" in "No one has yet compared these" is just a time-word, and could be "No one has ever compared these" or "No one has, up to now, compared these..." But "To have yet to" is a sort of idiomatic expression, that can only be used in certain ways. "He has yet to find his true calling..."

Let's hope the hybrifd doesn't catch on very much, because it's really annoying when words or phrases that mean the opposite are used to mean the same thing. It can lead to the "skunking" of both.

Best Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Dear AUE: I have recently encountered the following passage. "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early ... curious about is the first sentence "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early symptoms in men."[/nq]
Others have amply addressed the issue of "have yet to do". What troubles me about this sentence is the idea that one could compare "findings" to "symptoms".
In scientific jargon, "findings" are the conclusions of a study: "We find that excessive pickle eating leads to garlicky breath." "Symptoms" are observable manifestations of a disorder: "One of the symptoms of pickleitis is garlicky breath." One could compare the symptoms described in the findings of a study to the symptoms of another group of patients as appears to be what McSweeney is suggesting but one cannot compare findings themselves to symptoms.

Mike Nitabach

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[nq:2]I have recently encountered the following passage. "No one has ... able to get a typical picture of women." (quoted from[/nq]
http://health.discovery.com/news/healthscout/article.jsp?aid=516951&tid=30)
[nq:2]What I'm curious about is the first sentence "No one has yet to compare these findings to possible early symptoms in men."[/nq]
[nq:1]It presumably is referring to those who would normally be expected to make such a comparison, and means that all those who could be expected to have made such a comparison has done so, and that the findings are therefore available.[/nq]
And so "no one has yet to compare" means "all who should (do so) have compared"?
I almost get what you mean, but I can't make that final leap.

As it is right now, I agree with Franke and Donna. (pause) And after reading the full article, I still agree with them. That is, no comparison to men's symptoms has been done yet.
Maria Conlon
The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom. (H. L. Mencken)

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[nq:1]Others have amply addressed the issue of "have yet to do". What troubles me about this sentence is the idea ... symptoms of another group of patients as appears to be what McSweeney is suggesting but one cannot compare findings themselves to symptoms.[/nq]
I found the issue to be easier to understand after reading the whole article.
Here's a tinyurl if you haven't already gone to the site:

Maria Conlon

No one has yet to do... -- double negation?

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