neighbourhood

Question

Can I say,(a) Whenever Ali comes to the neighbourhood, he toos the horn to attract the children.      They come to buy ice cream when they hear the bell (ringing).

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,

Can I say,

(a) Whenever Ali comes to the neighbourhood, he toots the horn to attract the children.

They come to buy ice cream when they hear the bell (ringing).

These are both OK.

Clive

Vincent Teo · Answer

Can I say,

(a) Whenever Ali comes to the neighbourhood, he will toot the horn to attract the children.

(b) Children around the neighbourhood love to buy Ali's ice cream.

(c) Whenever Ali comes to the neighbourhood, he will toot the horn to attract the children to come and buy the ice cream.

Avangi · Answer

I think these are all okay. To my ear, "toots" is better than "will toot." I believe simple present is called for rather than future, but future is used by a lot of people. (Perhaps it's considered "a lower register.")

"Whenever Ali comes," could be taken as meaning he's not here right now, but may come at any time in the future - hence, "will toot," but that's contextual and "comes" is, after all, simple present. Maybe there's a standard approach to this that I'm not aware of.

He may be here right now.

CalifJim · Answer

(a) Whenever Ali comes to the neighbourhood, he will toot the horn to attract the children.

toots shows that the action is habitual. will toot can be used in that sense as well, but toots gets the idea of repeated action across better, and will toot usually does not indicate habitual action. In short, toots is preferable.

(c) Whenever Ali comes to the neighbourhood, he will toot the horn to attract the children to come and buy the ice cream.

Same comments as above. I think you mean buy ice cream, not buy the ice cream. It depends on whether you wish to refer to the same ice cream you have previously referred to in the same conversation.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

Thanks, CJ

So "will toot" would better apply to a one-time situation?

Please be ready for him. I'm not sure what time he's coming. Whenever he comes, he will toot the horn.

How would you analyze "whenever he comes"?

- A.

Lakshwadeep · Answer

Yes, "will toot" is better for a one-time situation. In your case, "whenever he comes" shows that "he" doesn't come regularly. Also, since it says please be ready, you can see that mostly "will toot" is used to alert someone about an event, while "toots" suggests that this is just some ordinary information.

Avangi · Answer

Thanks, L.  What about the mechanics of "whenever he comes"?

Hoa Thai · Answer

AvangiThanks, L. What about the mechanics of "whenever he comes"?

Hi Avangi,

Very interesting question! Now with the additional information, the situation is no longer 'habitual' as addressed earlier. So how do we explain the marriage of the simple present and the simple future tenses?

Could we treat 'Whenever he comes' as the general act of coming, while the act of tooting the horn is more related to a prediction (i.e., we are saying what we think will happen)?

That said, when will is used from the first person angle, as in "I'll call you when I get there", it is about a promise, right?

CalifJim · Answer

So "will toot" would better apply to a one-time situation?

Yes, although will is also sometimes used idiomatically for habitual actions. This latter usage (illustrated below) is the exceptional one.

[When / Whenever] he gets nervous, he'll start fidgeting with his ring, and his lips will start trembling. [habitual reading]

As shown above, both when and whenever can set up the idea of repeated action. Nevertheless, to my ear, whenever is more closely associated with this idea than when. when is more at home setting up the idea of one-time action if the main clause is in the future (or is an imperative).

He'll give you the money when he arrives.
When you arrive, call me.

But when can indicate something habitual when both clauses are in the present tense. (I find that it is almost a substitute for whenever in these patterns.)

When it rains, it pours. (could have been whenever)
She bites her lip when she's nervous. (could have been whenever)

Taking the previous discussion into account, your sentence Whenever he comes, he will toot the horn seems ambiguous to me. I'm inclined to hear it as either habitual (because of whenever) or one-time (because of will). For this reason, if I were writing the sentence, I would decide whether I meant something habitual (and then write Whenever he comes, he toots the horn) or something one-time (and write When he comes, he will toot the horn), thus saving the reader from trying to make sense of the mixed message of whenever and will together.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

Thanks Hoa and CJ.  This is very clear and thorough.  I'm satisfied as a logician, and nearly satisfied as a mechanic.

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