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Hi,

1) I once posted this sentence "He grew up in (the???) South Jeolla province" and ask whether or not the article "the" is necessary and Mr. M replied he would call the wrong. He went on to say it is normally not used before proper names.

Thank you. How about here? Can you check if these sentences with articles are right?

I am attending the Zingsang academy.

I am going to the Michael Han's store.

I am visiting the Michael Han English Academy.

I am going to pay a visit to the ZZ English Academy.

He is the secretary of the ZZZ organization.

I think the underlined parts in capital letters are proper names.

2) How about here, is the word "Korean" a proper name?

the Korean counterpart

Are all nouns that are capitalized proper nouns?

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

I am attending the Zingsang academy. Possible with Academy.

I am going to the Michael Han's store. No.

I am visiting the Michael Han English Academy. OK.

I am going to pay a visit to the ZZ English Academy. OK.

He is the secretary of the ZZZ organization. Possible with Organization.

the Korean counterpart Korean is a proper adjective, not a proper name or proper noun.

CJ

Believer · Answer

Thank you very much.

What is the difference in treatment in terms of putting the article 'the" before them?

I am going to the Zingsang academy.

I am going to the Zingsang Academy.

How about here? Are these sentences with articles right?

He is the ZZAA president.

She is the treasurer of the ZZAA organization.

I am working for the ZZAA organization.

I am going to the ZZAA conference.

I am going to the ZZAA Conference.

For the sake of studying, let's assume the acronym "ZZAA" represents a name of an organization.

Cool Breeze · Answer

Hi Believer

I feel tempted to disagree slightly with Mr. M regarding "He grew up in the South Jeolla province." The article is not associated with South Jeolla but province, and province is a common noun, not a proper noun. The article can be used.

In the same way you can say the England manager when you talk about the country's football team even though England is a proper noun. When a two-word unit consisting of a proper noun and a common noun really is the name of a place, no article is usually used: Oslo University, Gatwick Airport, Waterloo Station. However, an English friend of mine sometimes writes: I'll meet you at the Paddington station. He doesn't capitalize station.

I am going to the Michael Han's store is different and wrong because Han's is a genitive and the article is not usually associated with a noun following a proper noun in the genitive. In other words, it would be correct English to say I am going to the Michael Han store if that were the name of the store.

With common nouns in the genitive you can often use an article in similar cases or leave it out: Let's walk, it's (a) two miles' walk.

Cheers
CB

CalifJim · Answer

I'm going to reverse myself on some of these. I believe that as native speakers we simply get used to hearing certain combinations - with or without the - in specific cases. That's why it's very difficult for a native speaker to make a judgment in the abstract case of ZZAA conferences, organizations, and academies. ZZAA means nothing; it's just a place holder. I don't think the decision about whether to use the definite article is necessarily a one-answer-fits-all sort of situation. Maybe other members of the forum will weigh in on this.

organization is particularly problematic for me. If ZZAA is the name of the organization, then organization would not occur after it in a sentence.

Mr. Smith works for the Boy Scouts. Not for the Boy Scouts organization.

But if Organization is part of the title, it must be included.

He works for the World Health Organization.

The same remarks are generally true for academy.

Academy of is usual: He studies at the Academy of Music in Winston.

president of is the usual phrase: He is the president of IBM. Not the IBM president.

treasurer of and secretary of work the same way.

CJ

Believer · Answer

Hi Cool Breeze,

That was a cool response.

This might be a minor point but with all due respect, your statement, "When a two-word unit consisting of a proper noun and a common noun really is the name of a place, no article is usually used," seems to be valid if applied to your interpretation of the word "place."

Here, each of the following underlined parts are consisted of a proper noun and a common noun and can be called "places." They can accompany the article "the."

I am going to the Michael Han Academy.

I am going to the ZZAA Conference.

Am I right if I say, "The full organization's name has the article "the" as part of its name, it wouldn't make a differene when forming a sentence because with or without it as part of its name, the article would be there although the second one would be just part of its prper name." For example,

I am going to the ZZAA Conference.

I am going to The ZZAA Conference.

I think the phrases "ZZAA Conference" and "The ZZAA Conference" are proper names by themselves like their elements, ZZAA and The ZZAA.

As to your statement regarding common nouns in the genitive not needing the article, I assume that could be true. (Can you tell me what grammar rule that is?) Besides I want to say that I have seen them accompanying articles almost all the time. Do you agree?

Cool Breeze · Answer

Hi Believer

I have dealt with the definite article and proper nouns. The thread is called Would you use articles here? Post No. 232570.

Cheers
CB

Cool Breeze · Answer

Hi CalifJim

"I don't think the decision about whether to use the definite article is necessarily a one-answer-fits-all sort of situation."

To my mind you are absolutely right. Any restaurant owner can call his diner anything he wants, with or without the. Odd names are sometimes given to places just to attract customers.

Cheers
CB

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