NBA game

Question

The game took a place a few hours ago. Can I say this:

Sorry guys, but if you've watched the game, you know Kobe Bryant single handedly lost the game for the Lakers.

Or should it be:

Sorry guys, but if you watched the game, you know Kobe Bryant single handedly lost the game for the Lakers.

Terryxpress · Accepted Answer

I see no reason to use Present Perfect here. Why do you think this is possible?
(For discussion of the latter, let's say the game ended at 4 p.m. and it is now 9 p.m.)

Dimsumexpress · Answer

PreciousJonesThe game took a place a few hours ago. Can I say this:

PreciousJonesSorry guys, but if you watched the game, you know Kobe Bryant single handedly lost the game for the Lakers.

This is a counter-factual (conditional) context. I would say: If you watched the game, you should know Kobe Bryant single-handedly lost the game for the Lakers.

Terryxpress · Answer

The sentence in Past Tense and Present Tense is exactly the way this would be asserted as FACT by the speaker. I very much doubt a sports fan would hedge with conditional statements!

Dimsumexpress · Answer

But what if the fact was, I didn't watch the game.  Wouldn't that be counter-factual? When I ran into you, I asked " Did the Lakers win?" And you replied" if you watched the game, you should / would see how Kobie single-handledly lost the game for the Lakers.

Ivanhr · Answer

The sentence, as it's written, is more of a logical deduction than a true, conditional sentence.

If you watched the game (and I know you did), you know that Kobe single-handledly lost the game for the Lakers.

You can even substitute "since" for "if", and the meaning will remain the same.

Since you watched the game, you know that Kobe single-handledly lost the game for the Lakers.

If, in fact, you didn't watch the game and I know it, I would then say

If you had watched the game, you would have known that Kobe single-handledly lost the game for the Lakers.

Dimsumexpress · Answer

HiIvanh,

IvanhrSince you watched the game, you know that Kobe single-handledly lost the game for the Lakers.

No problem there, grammatically and syntactically speaking, it is workable, and it would certainly remove the "conditionality" element from the statement. However, the intrinsic meaning of "since" and "if" don't are not the same. By replace "if" with " since", we in fact would shift the meaning of the sentence, from my viewpoint.

IvanhrIf, in fact, you didn't watch the game and I know it, I would then say: If you had watched the game, you would have known that Kobe single-handledly lost the game for the Lakers.

I agree with you, applying the 3rd conditional structure is grammatically correct, but in a certain syntactic and semantic sense, if someone asked you : what was the final score on the Lakers' game? it doesn't sound to me like a very semantically logically cohesive answer. But if you apply the 2nd conditional by answering: " Man, if you watched the game ( you assumed I didn't because I asked about the score), you would see how Kobie .....lost the game for the Lakers".

The suggestion to use "since" to replace "if" in a sentence will drastically change the meaning.
i.e.
If you go to the supermarket today, would you mind picking up a case of beer for me? - I am not certain if you will go to the market today, but I am certain that you will go before the Super Bowl.

The alternative sentence with "since" : Since you go to the market,today, would you mind picking up a case of beer for me? Now the intrinsic meaning of the same sentence has changed from being uncertain to assertive. If we do that with the "Lakers" sentence, then we are completely changing the complexion of the discussion.

Ivanhr · Answer

dimsumexpressthe intrinsic meaning of "since" and "if" don't are not the same. By replace "if" with " since", we in fact would shift the meaning of the sentence, from my viewpoint

Yes, they are different. Still, I think that "if" can be interpreted as since because it's not unusal in casual conversation to use "if" (and not since or some other word) even when you are certain about something.

Oh, so you saw the game. Well, if/since you saw it then you know that Kobe sigle-handedly lost the game for the Lakers. (the meaning of "if" here can be interpreted as since)

Dimsumexpress · Answer

IvanhrWell, if/since you saw it then you know that Kobe sigle-handedly lost the game for the Lakers. (the meaning of "if" here can be interpreted as since)

Ivanhr,
Sorry! I hate to disagree. I just don't see how you can interpret "if" as "since" in the NBA context. Since I've already made several sentence examples, so I won't repeat the effort. My point is, with: "If you saw the game, you should know....", I don't know if you did or not". However, with: since you saw the game, you should know .....", this says, I know you saw the game. Although, they are both correct from a grammatical and semantic perspective, the intrinsic meaning are not equal.

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