Name of the Association

Question

We r in a unique kind of grammatical confusion! Thought it would be apt to share it with you all and get your opinion over the same.

We have an association of our business Community in Mumbai(Bombay), India. And all these years the Association's name was printed as STAINLESS STEEL MERCHANTS ASSOCIATION.

Just recently in one of the meetings it was thought that the name is not really correct in entirety.

Some proposed that the name should have been STAINLESS STEEL MERCHANTS' ASSOCIATION while some thought that the earlier one is itself correct.
(If you notice the emphasis is on the "apostophe"(') after the word "MERCHANTS".

It would be really kind of you'll to pour in your thoughts and comments and suggest which of the two is correct, or if there is any other correct name!

Kind Regards

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

It is difficult to believe that this is your first post, Anandjidedhia, because I have already responded to this question once, several days ago. If you find yourself unsatisfied with the responses, it would be better to express your reservations there or bump your original thread forward so that previous remarks can be reviewed and not re-written.

As I said then, while the apostrophe may be a requirement of strict grammar-- and I am not sure that is the case-- you should consider that this name must be reproduced multitudes of times on letterhead, in advertisements, and by the membership at large. The addition of the apostrophe only opens you up to increased misspellings, arguments with printers, etc., and is hardly worth the effort or concern being lavished upon this minor problem. My advice is to stick with your own precedent. If you were the Indian Grammarians' Association, that would be another matter. The latter organisation would probably dub itself 'The Association of Indian Grammarians'. How does 'The Association of Stainless Steel Merchants' sound to you?

CalifJim · Answer

To be completely correct, it would be "merchants' ", i.e., with the apostrophe.

Grammar is not the only consideration in your case, however. If it will be very costly to change the name, you may decide not to change it after all. I am referring to changing signs, advertisements, letter heads, and so on. Not knowing the laws in India, I don't know whether this is a name change that would have to be registered with a govermental agency, relicensed, or what not. Depending how large a task it is to make the change and how large a budget you have, it may be more cost efficient to forego absolutely complete correctness!

Mister Micawber · Answer

We've got to stop meeting like this, Jim-- people will start to talk.

MountainHiker · Answer

Hi,

I suspect most will say that "STAINLESS STEEL MERCHANTS' ASSOCIATION" is correct because it is the merchants' association. That is, they own it, so it ought to be possessive. There is nothing wrong with that logic.

However, you could also use "STAINLESS STEEL MERCHANTS ASSOCIATION".

It is merely a title. The Actors Studio in New York, where many famous actors learned their craft. You can see their title on their web page here.

Let's look at how some others do it:
Uniformed Fire Officers Assocation

Asian American Journalists Association

New York Woman's Bowling Assocation (interesting it is not Womens')

California Narcotic Officers' Association

California State Juvenile Officers Assocation
Los Angeles Film Critics Assocation

Montana Broadcasters Assocation

So you see, you have options. I think you can choose the form you like best. If it were me, I'd think about the overall aesthetics on how it looks on business cards and stationary. But you might have different criteria.

I hope this provides some food for thought.

MountainHiker

For future reference:
Keywords: Association, Actors Studio, Possessive

Mister Micawber · Answer

I am curious, MountainHiker, about how you found those.  I considered a google search for some authentic examples, but couldn't decide on a search phrase, so gave up without trying.  Did you just use 'association'?

CalifJim · Answer

Mr. Micawber,

Good. Let them talk. It will keep them out of our hair!

It's got to be morning for you, right? It's about 10:30 pm here. I never did look up the time difference.

Take care!

California Jim

CalifJim · Answer

Hi, MountainHiker,

I was actually considering an appeal to the Germanic noun-compounding nature of English to argue for leaving off the apostrophe.

But there are sometimes PG's (prescriptive grammarians) lurking about. One needs to be careful.

Jim

MountainHiker · Answer

Mister Macawber and CalifJim,

With regard to the google search, I just picked states and/or cities and association. Then I just looked at the first page or two of each search. I then moved on to the next state/city and assocation. Nothing too fancy.

CalifJim, I had seen a question similar to this before. It concerned The Actors Studio. Someone wanted to know the correct form of The Actors Studio in New York. Most everyone answered wrong. I like watching the inteviews on Bravo from The Actors Studio and had noticed that its name "missed" an apostrophe. So I simply provided that person with the URL.

Also, I sometimes watch Lou Dobbs MoneyLine on CNN. Again, no apostrophe. In his case, there was a bit of a tussle. CNN's position is that Lou doesn't own MoneyLine. He is merely their announcer/commentator. So no apostrophe. Whatever.

I think we all gave great answers, so the original question should be thoroughly answered.

Good night all!

MountainHiker

Mister Micawber · Answer

Perhaps one of you sent me this, or perhaps I have subscribed to this service and forgotten the fact, but at any rate the following serendipitiously arrived in my mailbox this morning:

Possessive vs. Attributive Nouns
***
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Which construction is correct in each of the following groups?

1. Fathers’ Day, Father’s Day, Fathers Day

2. Veterans’ Day, Veteran’s Day, Veterans Day

3. English Majors’ Society, English Major’s Society, English Majors Society

4. Bankers’ School, Banker’s School, Bankers School

5. International Executives’ Association, International Executive’s Association, International Executives Association

To ask which construction is “correct” in these groups is actually to pose a trick question: if these were not proper names, all of these choices could be grammatically correct depending on the context. Let's begin by examining how these phrases differ from one another:

--The first choice in each group is a plural noun in the possessive case (Fathers’, Veterans’, Majors’, Bankers’ and Executives’).

--The second choice in each group is a singular noun in the possessive case (Father’s, Veteran’s, Major’s, Banker’s, and Executive’s).

--The third choice in each group uses a plural noun that is not a possessive. We refer to it as an attributive; that is, it functions as an adjective rather than as a noun in the possessive case.

To make the best choices in the five groups above, we must consider whether the possessive or the attributive is more appropriate and, if the possessive case is appropriate, whether the possessive noun ought to be a singular possessive or a plural possessive.

Unfortunately, one rule does not govern in all cases when it comes to deciding when to treat a noun as merely attributive and when to make it possessive. The Chicago Manual of Style (15th ed.) admits that “the line between a possessive or genitive form and a noun used attributively—as an adjective—is sometimes fuzzy, especially in the plural.” This style manual suggests that writers omit the apostrophe “in proper names (often corporate names) or where there is clearly no possessive meaning” (p. 284):

Publishers Weekly
Diners Club
Department of Veterans Affairs

In deciding whether to use an apostrophe in such constructions, we cannot always depend on logic to lead us to the correct choice. For example, referring to the second Sunday in May as “Mothers’ Day” would seem logical since we intend to honor all mothers and not simply one mother. But if we look up the phrase in _Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary_ (11th ed.), we find that the noun “mother” is rendered as a singular possessive: “Mother’s Day.” Similarly, Webster’s gives us “Father’s Day,” not “Fathers’ Day.”

Webster’s also tells us that in the United States, November 11 is known as “Veterans Day”--plural, but not possessive. We might logically assume that we would render the name of a holiday honoring veterans in the same way we would render the name of a holiday honoring fathers or mothers, but once again logic will not lead us to the “correct” construction. We must rely on a reputable dictionary to tell us what has become the acceptable form for commonly used proper names such as these. In other words, knowing the “correct” form (apostrophe or no apostrophe) of widely used names means not that we follow a certain rule but that we determine what has become the conventional usage.

This issue arises particularly when we must render the titles or names of conventions, institutions, associations, societies, and the like (as in groups 3, 4, and 5 above), which we are not likely to find in any dictionary. Clearly, we cannot rely on logic alone to determine whether the possessive case is appropriate. And even if we do try to apply logic, sometimes it is unclear whether possession is indicated or not. In our third example above, for example, we could argue that the society *belongs *** a group of English majors (English Majors’ Society), or we could say, simply, that it is an organization *** them (English Majors Society).

In the absence of a ruling in a reputable dictionary, then, we have to find out how the organization itself handles its name in official publications. If an organization does not use the apostrophe in its name, then neither should we--even if we could argue logically that possession is indicated. We would not, therefore, use an apostrophe in “South Carolina Bankers School,” “Texas Classroom Teachers Association,” or “International Executives Association” because the organizations themselves do not do so. Likewise, even though the names "Randolph-Macon Woman's College" and "The Navy Enlisted Man's Club" may at first seem counterintuitive (neither of these institutions belongs to or serves only one woman or one man), we must nonetheless render the names exactly as the institutions do. We can find this information on an organization’s Web site, its letterhead stationery, or other official literature it produces.

In situations where a new organization or conference is being created, the founders must decide how to handle the title. Most organizations omit the apostrophe and treat the noun as attributive rather than possessive, suggesting that the organization or conference does not *belong *** the group but exists to *** its members.

However, plural nouns that do not end in "s"--words such as "children," "women," and "men"--are almost always treated as possessives, no matter what the logic would be. We could argue, for example, that the Bakersville Children’s Home does not *** to the children but rather is *** them. However, no one would consider writing “Bakersville Children Home.” Likewise, the London Men’s Convention may more logically be *** the men of London than belong *** them, but “London Men Convention” would sound odd to most ears.

Thus, when you are confused about whether a noun in a title or proper name is attributive or possessive, follow these steps:

(1) See if the title or name appears in a reputable dictionary (as do “Father’s Day” and “Veterans Day,” for example).

(2) If the name or title does not appear in the dictionary, check to see how the group or organization itself is rendering it.

(3) If the name or title in question is not well-enough established for a precedent to have been set in regard to its rendering, then make a decision based on logic (is possession clearly indicated?) and sound (would the phrase sound odd if the noun were not in the possessive case?).

***
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Name of the Association

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