Mysterious word origin... any odeas?

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[nq:1]A bit of a cheek realy, as I only just sunscribed and have never conytibuted or even read this group ... for it and ways it could have become chan ged, abbreviated, corrupted and/or changed over the years, to no avail.[/nq]
(snip)
[nq:1]A very detailed map of the area was made in 1726, listing even individual trees in unusual detail, as well ... I believe the last two of those are correct. What I want to know is where the name came from.[/nq]
(snip)
According to Brewer's Britain and Ireland, the name (better known as a district of inner London) derives from the Pemlico Native American tribe, having been brought back from America by failed colonists in the 1580s. One of these was a brewer called Ben Pemlico or Pimlico, who set up a pub in the area now known as Pimlico, first recorded in
1598. There's no reference to Barnet, though. Perhaps Ben retiredthere?
Also, see
With best wishes,
Peter.

Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

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[nq:1]What I want to know is where the name came from. There is no record of any family by that ... in various accounts, the spelling changes, leads me to doubt that 'pymlico' was derived from some unknown, pre C18 owner.[/nq]
W.F. Prideaux in "Notes and Queries" in 1908 traced it to a Caribbean bird name:
http://books.google.com/books?id=zEsAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA401&q=pymlico

A little more searching identifies the bird as Puffinus lherminieri:
http://orientalbirdimages.org/birdimages.php?action=birdspecies&Bird ID=1152

¬R "MY FLIEGENDE HOLLÄNDER WON'T STOP BLEEEEEEING!" Poot Rootbeer

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Thanks Peter - the OED said something similar. I think any connection with Ben Pymlici very unlikely, the area in London is far away. I expect the spelling of that place probaly 'standasdised' the House that exists today. And if the word I am looking into goes back as far as the Wats of the Roses, any connection with America... well, I discounred it!

I wonder where Ben aquired his name even so? A Native American himself perhaps?

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~~snip~~
[nq:1]By 1754, a sustantial house had been buil on "Pimleco Field" (as mentioned in 1726), the first house in the ... in various accounts, the spelling changes, leads me to doubt that 'pymlico' was derived from some unknown, pre C18 owner.[/nq]
The Survey of London concluded in the 1920s that the earliest "Pimlico" was the late 16th/early 17th inn at Hoxton of that name, which took its name from its tenant Ben Pimlico. It also noted that the first record of the "better- known" area of Westminster post-dates references to the Hoxton inn, and surmises that it and, in passing, the Hadley Green house were probably named for the Hoxton venue.
This is from 'Historical introduction: Hoxton, to the west of Hoxton Street', Survey of London: volume 8: Shoreditch (1922), pp. 72-88.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=98227&strquery=pimlico barnet
(quote)
Pimlico was a noted place of entertainment at the end of the 16th and beginning of the 17th centuries, and is frequently referred to by the dramatists of the period. (fn. 88) In 1609 a poem (sic) was published called Pimlyco or Runne Redcap; 'tis a mad world at Hogsdon, (fn. 89) extolling the charms of the place, and particularly the excellence of the ale supplied.

The origin of the name is not known certainly, but if the quotation (fn. 90) from Newes from Hogsdon, 1598, is to be relied upon, it would seem to have been derived from an early (perhaps the original) tenant. The earliest reference to the better-known Pimlico in Westminster so far discovered is dated 1626, (fn. 91) and it may therefore have derived its name from the Hoxton place of entertainment. (fn. 92)
(selected footnotes)
(88) For example, Ben Jonson, in The Alchemist, Act V., Scene 1, writes:? "Galants, men and women,
And of all sorts, tag-rag, been seen to flock here, In threaves, these ten weeks, as to a second Hogsdon, In days of Pimlico and Eye-bright."
(90) "have at thee then, my merrie boyes, and hey for old Ben Pimlico's nut browne." Quoted in Notes and Queries, 1st Series, I., p. 474, by E. F. Rimbault from "a rare (if not unique) tract now before me."

(92) The same is probably the case with Pimlico House on Hadley Green (see article by Cass on the Battle of Barnet in Transactions of London and Middlesex Archæological Society, VI., p. 38).
(/quote)

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

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[nq:2](snip) (snip) According to Brewer's Britain and Ireland, the name ... to Barnet, though. Perhaps Ben retired there? Also, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimlico[/nq]
[nq:1]Thanks Peter - the OED said something similar. I think any connection with Ben Pymlici very unlikely, the area in London is far away.[/nq]
I don't think that's a safe assumption Barnet is some 10 or 15 miles out of London, and that was a popular distance in the 17th century for gentlemen's residential and income estates.
[nq:1]I expect the spelling of that place probaly 'standasdised' the House that exists today.[/nq]
If you have some documentation to show that, it's worth publishing; if you're just working from logical surmise "it makes sense that that's what happened" it's not, I'm afraid, a very strong argument in place-name research (no matter how appealing the logic may be).
[nq:1]And if the word I am looking into goes back as far as the Wats of the Roses, any connection with America... well, I discounred it![/nq]
Again, unless you have some actual reference to the name, in some form, which pre-dates the Hoxton links of 1598, this is little more than a "what-if-it- could-have-been" scenario.
[nq:1]I wonder where Ben aquired his name even so? A Native American himself perhaps?[/nq]
The Brewer's quote seems to suggest that he was one of the "failed colonists" who returned to England in the 1580s (who presumably named himself something exotic when he opened his inn). I'm not sure what they're basing that on, apart from it being an odd name.

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

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[nq:1]On 05 Apr 2010, Martin wrote[/nq]
Wikipedia points to:
Rev. E. Cobham Brewer, Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 1898 edn.
http://www.bartleby.com/81/13282.html/
The Millennium Edition of Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable has a longer entry. It is cautious:
..
The name in Hoxton is said to* derive from Ben Pimlico, a local brewer and tavern keeper famous for his ales.
..
He eventually settled just south of the site occupied by the present Victoria station, which may account* for the name of this district of Westminster.
Professor Richard Coates, in the American onomastic journal Names Vol 43, No. 3 (September 1995), plausibly shows* the name to have been copied from a place in America called Pamlico and to be linked with Sir Walter Raleigh's abortive Roanoke settlements of the 1580s. As such it may have been the first American place-name to be exported to England.
* "said to", "may account", "plausibly shows". So... this explanation might be correct-ish or it might be capable of being destroyed by a single contrary fact.

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

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In "Martin" (Email Removed) posted on Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:36:15 +0100 the following:
[nq:1]A bit of a cheek realy, as I only just sunscribed and have never conytibuted or even read this group before.[/nq]
I have an "odea". If you're going to post in HTML, specify a contrasting background color and text color. Since my newsreader is set to display a black background and white text, and your message has a white background, but no text color specified, your HTML was rendered unreadable. I don't mind toggling to plain text, but it defeats the purpose of using HTML.

Damaeus

"Marijuana leads to homosexuality ... and therefore to AIDS." White House Drug Czar Carlton Turner 1986

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[nq:2]A bit of a cheek realy, as I only just sunscribed and have never conytibuted or even read this group before.[/nq]
[nq:1]I have an "odea". If you're going to post in HTML, specify a contrasting background color and text color. Since ... your HTML was rendered unreadable. I don't mind toggling to plain text, but it defeats the purpose of using HTML.[/nq]
Is there a purpose? My newsreader must have filtered out the HTML, because I didn't see any (for which I'm grateful).

In a different context, of course, your odea is valid and important: for stuff to display on the web (i.e. stuff written in HTML) it's a very bad odea to specify a forground colour without specifying a background colour, or vice versa.

athel

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In Athel Cornish-Bowden posted on Tue, 6 Apr 2010 18:41:49 +0200 the following:
[nq:1]Is there a purpose? My newsreader must have filtered out the HTML, because I didn't see any (for which I'm grateful).[/nq]
Well, I'm one who believes that HTML could be used on usenet, if it's used sensibly and not overdone. For example, don't even specify a background color nor a text color, but just use the markups for boldface and italics. HTML even comes in handy if you want to force the reader's newsreader to display a fixed-width font when you need to use ASCII art to illustrate some point, or to make your signature look right at the end of the message. But unfortunately, many people seem to be unable to resist the temptation to attach animated GIFs, their picture, fancy backgrounds, etc... to all their messages, just because they have HTML composition capabilities, and that makes a three line response end up 1200 lines.

I know that /italics/ and boldface work most of the time, but if I'm writing something like fiction, and I want to post it to usenet, I'd much rather have it posted so it can be printed out and look like the text you'd find in a novel, not on usenet with its workarounds to unconventionally signify text styles.
I'm in a dilemma about what to do with a free-for-the-internet, novel-length story I want to write. I want to write it so I can publish it as a PDF, and also to usenet. If I write it for a PDF file, I can use actual italics and boldface, if necessary, but if I want to post it as plain text to usenet, I'd have to go back and edit the whole damned thing and change all my italics to /italics/. I don't think I'd use boldface in it, but one of the characters is going to hear voices. I thought it might be good to use italics to signify his thoughts, and italics in quotes to signify the voices he hears. What to do, what to do...
[nq:1]In a different context, of course, your odea is valid and important: for stuff to display on the web (i.e. stuff written in HTML) it's a very bad odea to specify a forground colour without specifying a background colour, or vice versa.[/nq]
Yes, and many newsletters I get from well-known sites that you'd think would have professional editors even send HTML newsletters without specifying both text and background colors. It's amazing.

Damaeus

"Marijuana leads to homosexuality ... and therefore to AIDS." White House Drug Czar Carlton Turner 1986

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[nq:2]A bit of a cheek realy, as I only just sunscribed and have never conytibuted or even read this group before.[/nq]
[nq:1]I have an "odea". ...[/nq]
Not a bad word, actually. Maybe it could catch on with the meaning of bad idea and pronounced as "Oh dear!".

athel

Mysterious word origin... any odeas?

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