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Usenet Posted 21 years ago
Usage
Must/had to - 'outside' obligation in the past
Hello:
I wouldn't know too much about how the grammar was in VW's time, but instead of
"if she must be accurate"
I would've expected
"if she had to be accurate"
in the following:
... what was the point, she asked, of buying good chairs to let them spoil up here all through the winter when the house, with only one old woman to see to it, positively dripped with wet? Never mind, the rent was precisely twopence half-penny; the children loved it; it did her husband good to be three thousand, or if she MUST BE accurate, three hundred miles from his libraries and his lectures and his disciples; and there was room for visitors.
To the Lighthouse, by Virginia Woolf (part1)
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/w/woolf/virginia/w91t/part1.html
BTW, I expected "had to" based on what Swan tells me on MUST: past necessity and obligation
"Must" is not normally used to talk about past obligation (except in indirect speech). This is because "must" is used mainly for giving orders and advice and for making recommendations, and one cannot do these things in the past. "Had to" is used to talk about 'outside' obligation in the past.
I had to cycle three miles to school when I was a child.
I know of course that modal verbs in English are not too strictly related to times or tenses, still ...
Thank you for any clarifications.
Marius Hancu
I wouldn't know too much about how the grammar was in VW's time, but instead of
"if she must be accurate"
I would've expected
"if she had to be accurate"
in the following:
... what was the point, she asked, of buying good chairs to let them spoil up here all through the winter when the house, with only one old woman to see to it, positively dripped with wet? Never mind, the rent was precisely twopence half-penny; the children loved it; it did her husband good to be three thousand, or if she MUST BE accurate, three hundred miles from his libraries and his lectures and his disciples; and there was room for visitors.
To the Lighthouse, by Virginia Woolf (part1)
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/w/woolf/virginia/w91t/part1.html
BTW, I expected "had to" based on what Swan tells me on MUST: past necessity and obligation
"Must" is not normally used to talk about past obligation (except in indirect speech). This is because "must" is used mainly for giving orders and advice and for making recommendations, and one cannot do these things in the past. "Had to" is used to talk about 'outside' obligation in the past.
I had to cycle three miles to school when I was a child.
I know of course that modal verbs in English are not too strictly related to times or tenses, still ...
Thank you for any clarifications.
Marius Hancu
Top answer
[nq:1]Hello: I wouldn't know too much about how the grammar was in VW's time, but instead of "if she must ... [/nq] That use of "must" is not uncommon and has a special place. " The stiffness it brings is like a shove.
- [nq:1]Hello: I wouldn't know too much about how the grammar was in VW's time, but instead of "if she must ...
- [/nq] That use of "must" is not uncommon and has a special place.
- " The stiffness it brings is like a shove.
- It seems to me that Ms.
- Woolf is letting us in on her character's rambling thoughts, so tense is really not an issue, even though the tense is right because she's addressing herself in the present.
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4 Answers
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[nq:1]Hello: I wouldn't know too much about how the grammar was in VW's time, but instead of "if she must ... I know of course that modal verbs in English are not too strictly related to times or tenses, still ...[/nq]
That use of "must" is not uncommon and has a special place. It's used to express annoyance, often mock annoyance, in phrases like "If you MUST know, it's a pimple." The stiffnes
That use of "must" is not uncommon and has a special place. It's used to express annoyance, often mock annoyance, in phrases like "If you MUST know, it's a pimple." The stiffnes
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[nq:1]Hello: I wouldn't know too much about how the grammar was in VW's time, but instead of "if she must ... MUST: past necessity and obligation "Must" is not normally used to talk about past obligation (except in indirect speech).[/nq]
There you have it, I think. Virginia Woolf is writing in free indirect speech here.
[nq:1]This is because "must" is used mainly for giving orders and advi
There you have it, I think. Virginia Woolf is writing in free indirect speech here.
[nq:1]This is because "must" is used mainly for giving orders and advi
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. It seems to me that
[nq:1]Ms. Woolf is letting us in on her character's rambling thoughts[/nq]
Hi, Perch! Leonard would have been puzzled by that 'Ms.' seeing as how PC-speak is a more recent blight on the land.
[nq:1]Ms. Woolf is letting us in on her character's rambling thoughts[/nq]
Hi, Perch! Leonard would have been puzzled by that 'Ms.' seeing as how PC-speak is a more recent blight on the land.
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[nq:1]. It seems to me that[/nq]
[nq:2]Ms. Woolf is letting us in on her character's rambling thoughts[/nq]
[nq:1]Hi, Perch! Leonard would have been puzzled by that 'Ms.' seeing as how PC-speak is a more recent blight on the land.[/nq]
Roger? Dude!
Everybody's getting tongue studs these days, so I had mine sewn to my cheek. What do you think? Don't I look rather pretty?
Pe
[nq:2]Ms. Woolf is letting us in on her character's rambling thoughts[/nq]
[nq:1]Hi, Perch! Leonard would have been puzzled by that 'Ms.' seeing as how PC-speak is a more recent blight on the land.[/nq]
Roger? Dude!
Everybody's getting tongue studs these days, so I had mine sewn to my cheek. What do you think? Don't I look rather pretty?
Pe
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