Mouse =women in American slang ???

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Hey ....La question du titre se rapporte à l'ouvrage " des souris et des hommes " ...Pour les lecteurs américains, le jeu de mots "souris/nana"est-il évident ? Is there on line an American slang dictionnary ?Thank you for any answer on this forum .MT

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Sorry ! please read "mice = women" in the title !
"MT" (Email Removed) a écrit dans le message de

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In our last episode,
,
the lovely and talented MT
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
[nq:2]Hey .... La question du titre se rapporte à l'ouvrage ... Thank you for any answer on this forum . MT[/nq]
I don't read a word of French, but I think I get your drift.

In the American language "mouse" means a timid person (MWCD11th). and in metaphor may mean a small being of any kind. Mice does not mean women in the language as whole or in any current slang I know.
"Mousy" means (as well as timid) the color of (a common) mouse's fur: dull brown or brown and gray. It is sometimes applied to women with hair that color or by metaphor, to a woman of plain or dull (not to say repulsive) appearance.
Most expressions involving "men" and "mice" are meant to contrast men of valor with timid men.

Lars Eighner ~~finger for geek code~~ (Email Removed) http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "I write because it gives me the greatest possible artistic pleasure to write.

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[nq:1]Hey .... La question du titre se rapporte à l'ouvrage " des souris et des hommes " ...[/nq]
The contrast in the title "Of mice and men" is simply between timidity and manliness, rather than between femininity and masculinity.
[nq:1]Pour les lecteurs américains, le jeu de mots "souris/nana"est-il évident ?[/nq]
I don't think so: there are certainly no resonances for me with "women" in the use of "mice" in that phrase.
(Indeed, one can speak of a "mousy woman" which underlines the reference to timidity rather than femininity.)

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)

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[nq:1]I don't read a word of French, but I think I get your drift. In the American language "mouse" means ... to say repulsive) appearance. Most expressions involving "men" and "mice" are meant to contrast men of valor with timid men.[/nq]
The expression comes from a line in ³To a Mouse,² by Robert Burns:

³The best laid schemes o¹ mice an¹ men / Gang aft a-gley.²

I don't know that Burns makes the contrast between valor and timidity. To me, he seems to making a different point, that any person's plans may go wrong no matter how important or unimportant the person may be.

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[nq:1]The expression comes from a line in ³To a Mouse,² by Robert Burns: ³The best laid schemes o¹ mice an¹ ... a different point, that any person's plans may go wrong no matter how important or unimportant the person may be.[/nq]
You are right of course, that is exactly the point Burns is making.

Alec McKenzie

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[nq:1]I don't read a word of French, but I think I get your drift. In the American language "mouse" means ... of any kind. Mice does not mean women in the language as whole or in any current slang I know.[/nq]
It has been used in the past. Partridge has it for a woman, usually a harlot, in C16 to late C18, and used for a woman by beatniks in the late 1950s. It's also been slang for both male and female genitals. Cassells adds US black usage for wife in C19, usage for 'mistress' in late C19, US usage for a woman 1910s-1960s, 1950s & 60s for a small, very feminine girl who likes being cuddled and 1930s US underworld for an effeminate homosexual.
I have recollections of seeing it in US P.I. fiction of the 30s or 40s - couldn't say now whether it was Chandler, Hammett or who. I also have a recollection of hearing it in film noir from the same period. Maybe someone here has memorised the screenplay to Maltese Falcon or Big Sleep or whatever.
Anyhoo, our friend was asking whether for American readers (why just Americans? J'sais pas moi) the play on words between 'mouse' and 'mistress' was obvious.

''A daimen-icker in a thrave
'S a sma' request: ''
... and I think we can all take comfort from that.

John 'starting away sae hasty' Dean
Oxford
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Merci à tous....
MT
"MT" (Email Removed) a écrit dans le message de

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Yo!

Pas du tout. Je ne l'ai pas remarqué avant de votre "posting". Mais je n'ai pas vécu dans les années 30.
[nq:2]I don't read a word of French, but I think ... language as whole or in any current slang I know.[/nq]
[nq:1]It has been used in the past. Partridge has it for a woman, usually a harlot, in C16 to late ... noir from the same period. Maybe someone here has memorised the screenplay to Maltese Falcon or Big Sleep or whatever.[/nq]
How about musicals? The low-life musician and radio personality "Pal Joey" constantly uses "mouse" for "woman" in John O'Hara's series of epistolary stories (1938, one year after Of Mice and Men ), and I'll bet the term shows up in the Rodgers and Hart musical (1940), for which O'Hara wrote the book.
[nq:1]Anyhoo, our friend was asking whether for American readers (why just Americans? J'sais pas moi) the play on words between ... play in 'The Red Pony'. So I don't think the slang meaning of 'mouse' has any significance -it's a coincidence.[/nq]
I imagine you're right, though if it had occurred to Steinbeck, he might have thought that it couldn't hurt sales.
[nq:1]''A daimen-icker in a thrave 'S a sma' request: '' ... and I think we can all take comfort from that.[/nq]
Well, it leaves us something more than grief and pain, anyway.

Jerry Friedman

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[nq:2]It has been used in the past. Partridge has it ... used for a woman by beatniks in the late 1950s.[/nq]
[nq:1]How about musicals? The low-life musician and radio personality "Pal Joey" constantly uses "mouse" for "woman" in John O'Hara's series ... and I'll bet the term shows up in the Rodgers and Hart musical (1940), for which O'Hara wrote the book.[/nq]
Hot **** Jer! You hit the **** nail right prezackley on the **** head again!

http://www.geocities.com/bebeneuwirth site/paljoey.html

>
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>

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>

John Dean
Oxford
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[nq:2]How about musicals? The low-life musician and radio personality "Pal ... and Hart musical (1940), for which O'Hara wrote the book.[/nq]
[nq:1]Hot **** Jer! You hit the **** nail right prezackley on the **** head again! http://www.geocities.com/bebeneuwirth site/paljoey.html >[/nq]
Could they have been so called because they were always being chased by hep cats or did hep cats come later?

Mouse =women in American slang ???

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