Miners in Spain barricaded roads...

Question

HiPlease look at this thread. Miners in Spain barricaded roads and clashed with police.I've taken it from Longman Advanced American Dictionary. Shouldn't it be the roads and the police?Many thanks,Tom

BarbaraPA · Accepted Answer

No, because we don't know which roads or which police.

It would be equally idiomatic to say "the police" because it doesn't really matter which police - it would be the police who responded to the disturbance. We say "Call the police" even though we don't know/care which police will show up.

However, unless you knew where in Spain they were and which roads they barricaded, using the definite article with "roads" wouldn't make sense.

RayH · Answer

Grammar GeekHowever, unless you knew where in Spain they were and which roads they barricaded, using the definite article with "roads" wouldn't make sense.

Barbara,

I'm not sure I buy this. I struggled with trying to answer this question and couldn't come up with a way to explain why the sentence is correct with or without the definite article (not anything that made any sense, anyway). Saying "the roads" here makes just as much sense to me as saying "roads" (I take either one to mean "the roads" wherever the event is occurring). Also, you say that "the police" is okay because it doesn't matter which police, well as far as the reader is concerned it doesn't matter which roads so why not "the roads"? There must be something else going on.

Try these very similar examples:

Protesters in Hollywood chanted slogans and argued with bystanders.
People at Disneyland took pictures and coped with crowds.

It occurs to me that making the nouns singular forces the use of an article. For example, "...chanted slogans" is okay but it has to be "..chanted a/the slogan." Similarly, in Mr. Tom's example "...barricaded roads" is okay but it has to be "...barricaded a/the road." Why? Not a clue.

Well, I'm clearly way out of my depth here. I hope someone can explain this, because I certainly can't.

Mr. Tom · Answer

Many thanks to both of you.

Doesn't it happen many times that "the" is used on the speaker's assumtion--I mean when he knows that the listener/reader would be able to "relate" to that specific noun?

For example, a story starts:

I was in the drawing room when I heard the scream.

...the readers would gather which drawing room

After the bomb blast the police were everywhere.

I'm NOT at all proud of my points here...just was thinking aloud.

Tom

Yankee · Answer

Hi Tom

Without "the" preceding "roads" and "police", the reference is more general.

The use of "the" makes the reference to "roads" and "police" more specific.

"I called the police." => Without any further context, this suggests a specific police department to me -- i.e. "the local police".

"The miners barricaded the roads." => This suggests specific roads to me (and also specific miners). In order to know which roads are being referenced, additional context would be necessary.

Last, but not least, I would like to point out that the word "miners" was also used without the definite article in your sentence.

CalifJim · Answer

RayHIt occurs to me that making the nouns singular forces the use of an article. For example, "...chanted slogans" is okay but it has to be "..chanted a/the slogan." Similarly, in Mr. Tom's example "...barricaded roads" is okay but it has to be "...barricaded a/the road." Why? Not a clue.

There is no "reason" for this. It's just an observed fact that a singular countable noun in English must be accompanied by a determiner. There is no semantic motivation for it, if that's what you're looking for.

On the other hand, another way to see it is that the plural of a/an is the zero article: a road; roads. In this question of "roads" vs. "the roads", you're looking for a semantic motivation behind the choice. The analog in the singular would be to discuss the choice of "a road" vs. "the road".

I, too, saw the choice as moot. "the"? Take it or leave it. There's not enough difference there to feed a canary.

I'd say that the presence of "the" suggests that the writer knows which roads and which police (even if the reader has no more than a vague idea of which these might be). The absence of "the" suggests that these details are either unknown to the writer or unimportant for the news story -- they are just "some roads", "some police", and what does it matter which?

CJ

RayH · Answer

Thanks for your comments CJ. I guess it's the way it is because it's the way it is... so to speak.

I think my belief that the use of articles is more idiomatic than is usually acknowledged is further reinforced by this thread.

CalifJim · Answer

RayHthe use of articles is more idiomatic than is usually acknowledged

Yes. It's discouraging to learners to find that the general principles that govern the use of articles are violated at least 30% of the time! Or, alternately, that the principles are so subtle that it's impossible to decide correct usage from them. Better to imitate blindly the usage of native speakers than to tie yourself in knots trying to apply the "rules".

CJ

Mr. Tom · Answer

Once again a huge thank-you to all of you.

From the discussion, I understand I can say these two sentences...and there is NOT much/any difference between them.

Angry laborers in France burned shops and destroyed hotels.

The angry laborers in France burned the shops and destroyed the hotels.

Please let me know.

Tom

PS: By the way, what would you say as a native speaker--use "the"?

CalifJim · Answer

Mr. Tomwhat would you say as a native speaker

Leaving out those "the"s makes the style much more newsy -- more journalistic. I would not use the "the"s. (Nor would I have used them in the example given in the original question.) The newspaper reader is probably not really interested in the names of the angry laborers, in the names of the shops that were burned, nor in the names of those hotels. If the laborers, shops, or hotels are so important to the story that they have possibly even been named earlier in the newspaper article, or mentioned in greater detail in some way or another, then I would use "the"s. Otherwise, not.

CJ

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