"Me and" vs. "and me"

Question

I apologize if this has been discussed before. I searched through the AUE site and FAQ and couldn't find it mentioned.
I've always thought it was a rule of grammar that when you list people, you should always put yourself last, e.g.:
John and I
Suzy, Ellen, and me
Bob and myself
Recently, though, someone suggested to me that this is just courtesy, not a rule of grammar.
Which is it? If I am right, is there an online reference I can cite?

Gail Gurman (Email Removed) Currently on the lookout for an Oakland area paralegal internship or part-time technical writing contract.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

In our last episode,
(Email Removed),
the lovely and talented Gail Gurman
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
[nq:1]I apologize if this has been discussed before. I searched through the AUE site and FAQ and couldn't find it ... not a rule of grammar. Which is it? If I am right, is there an online reference I can cite?[/nq]
This is only a matter of courtesy. No grammar rule requires that the first person pronoun be last in a series. I doubt you will find a online reference that says so since listing all the possible rules that are not would hardly be possible. Many students are taught this courtesy (or style) with grammar and are likely to be convinced that it is grammar. In some cases departing from this convention will produce results that are likely to be disturbing to most native speakers:

?I and John went to the zoo after lunch.
In other cases, a variation will hardly be noticed:

This ruling is important to me and my family.
The grammatical problems with such constructions are:
1) Using "and I" when "and me" is called for usually attributedto hypercorrection,
and
2) Using "myself" when it is not called for which I suppose isa futile effort to escape the problem of whether it should be "I" or "me."
"And me" (or "Me and") in place of "and I" is a child's error, and it is hypercorrection of this that results in 1) above.

*John and myself went to the movies.
I dressed myself and the baby.
I dressed the baby and myself.
*John and me went to the movies.
John and I went to the movies.
?I and John went to the movies.
*Patty threw a party for John and I.
*Patty threw a party for John and myself.
Patty threw a party for me and my family.
Patty threw a party for my family and me.
On the theory that anything which sounds sufficiently peculiar to a native speaker is ungrammatical you could claim "I and John went to the movies" is ungrammatical, but "me and my family" does not sound so peculiar. If "I and John" is ungrammatical, the rule must be more complicated than simply that the first person pronoun comes last.

Lars Eighner ~~finger for geek code~~ (Email Removed) http://www.io.com/~eighner/ Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. Samuel Beckett

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I've always thought it was a rule of grammar that when you list people,you should always put yourself last, e.g.: John and I Suzy, Ellen, and me Bob and myself Recently, though, someone suggested to me that this is just courtesy, nota rule of grammar.[/nq]
Your informer was right: this is a point of
rhetorical politeness, not a grammatical rule.

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)

Usenet · Answer

Thanks very much for answer my question!

Gail Gurman (Email Removed) Currently on the lookout for an Oakland area paralegal internship or part-time technical writing contract.

"Me and" vs. "and me"

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