'mam' and 'gov'

Question

In the tv-series "The Bill" the police use a lot of expressions which are not difficult -even for a foreigner - to understand. But some pronunciations and expressions puzzle my.
1. Many of the policepersons drop the H'es everywhere (as saidby Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady) - so "I haven't -> I 'aven't etc.
Question: is this normal colloquially or is it just to give the impression of colloquiallity to the viewer?
2. The leading persons are sometimes referred to as "mam" or"gov'" ('mam' with a very open a like in the word "hard") denoting a
leader.
Question: where do these word derive from etymothologially? and what is the differences between "mam", "chief" and "gov'"? Has it to do with ranks and if so, what is the upper rank in the police force?
3. Chiefinspector, CID, etc. are some words often used indetective stories.
Question: what are the official designations in the London Police Force and what are the CID a short for?
4. The Bill probably takes place in a policedistrict "SunHill" - I am aware that most series make it up in order not to denounce somebody, but is there really a district in London called "Sun Hill" with a policestation?
Any comments to all or just parts of the 4 questions would be appreciated.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]In the tv-series "The Bill" the police use a lot of expressions which are not difficult -even for a foreigner ... 'aven't etc. Question: is this normal colloquially or is it just to give the impression of colloquiallity to the viewer?[/nq]
It's pretty common; it used to be a class marker, but pronunciations in BrE have tended to become less formally "correct" over the years.
[nq:1]2. The leading persons are sometimes referred to as "mam" or "gov'" ('mam' with a very open a like in the word "hard") denoting a leader. Question: where do these word derive from etymothologially?[/nq]
"Ma'am" is from "Madame"; it's a polite formal usage for addressing a female superior. (It's what one calls the Queen once you've been introduced to her; in that case it rhymes with "pam", not with "palm".)
"Guv" is short for "guv'nor/governor" it's an informal term for your boss.
"Chief" is somewhere between the formality of the two.
[nq:1]and what is the differences between "mam", "chief" and "gov'"? Has it to do with ranks and if so, what ... etc. are some words often used in detective stories. Question: what are the official designations in the London Police Force[/nq]
London's police are the Metropolitan Police, usually abbreviated to "the Met"; I don't know the ranking orders.
[nq:1]and what are the CID a short for?[/nq]
Criminal Investigation Department.
[nq:1]4. The Bill probably takes place in a policedistrict "Sun Hill" - I am aware that most series make it up in order not to denounce somebody, but is there really a district in London called "Sun Hill" with a policestation?[/nq]
No; it's fictional.
[nq:1]Any comments to all or just parts of the 4 questions would be appreciated.[/nq]
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Usenet · Answer

"HVS" (Email Removed) skrev i meddelelsen
[nq:1]On 31 Jul 2008, Arne H. Wilstrup wrote[/nq]
[nq:2]In the tv-series "The Bill" the police use a lot ... just to give the impression of colloquiallity to the viewer?[/nq]
[nq:1]It's pretty common; it used to be a class marker, but pronunciations in BrE have tended to become less formally "correct" over the years.[/nq]
Thank you! :-)
[nq:2]2. The leading persons are sometimes referred to as "mam" ... a leader. Question: where do these word derive from etymothologially?[/nq]
[nq:1]"Ma'am" is from "Madame"; it's a polite formal usage for addressing a female superior. (It's what one calls the Queen once you've been introduced to her; in that case it rhymes with "pam", not with "palm".)[/nq]
??? I understand the answer, but I am pretty sure that the policepersons refer to their female superior as "mam" which rhymes with "palm" - is this usual BrE or just slang?
[nq:1]"Guv" is short for "guv'nor/governor" it's an informal term for your boss. "Chief" is somewhere between the formality of the two.[/nq]
Thank you! :-)
[nq:2]and what is the differences between "mam", "chief" and "gov'"? ... what are the official designations in the London Police Force[/nq]
[nq:1]London's police are the Metropolitan Police, usually abbreviated to "the Met"; I don't know the ranking orders.[/nq]
OK!
[nq:2]and what are the CID a short for?[/nq]
[nq:1]Criminal Investigation Department.[/nq]
Thank you! :-)
[nq:2]4. The Bill probably takes place in a policedistrict "Sun ... a district in London called "Sun Hill" with a policestation?[/nq]
[nq:1]No; it's fictional.[/nq]
Thank you! :-)
I am impressed with the speed you have answered my questions. Thank you ever so much! :-)
Arne H. Wilstrup
Danish speaking person with a mixture of oldfashioned Danish and modern teenager-slang :-)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]On 31 Jul 2008, Arne H. Wilstrup wrote[/nq]
[nq:2]In the tv-series "The Bill" the police use a lot ... what are the official designations in the London Police Force[/nq]
[nq:1]London's police are the Metropolitan Police, usually abbreviated to "the Met"; I don't know the ranking orders.[/nq]
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan Police Service#Police ranks

The police insignia show that their ranks are intended to correspond to Army ranks: e.g. a Chief Inspector has the same insignia as a Captain, a Superintendent the same as a Major.

Alan Jones

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]On 31 Jul 2008, Arne H. Wilstrup wrote "Ma'am" is ... her; in that case it rhymeswith "pam", not with "palm".)[/nq]
[nq:1]??? I understand the answer, but I am pretty sure that the policepersons refer to their female superior as "mam" which rhymes with "palm" - is this usual BrE or just slang?[/nq]
Oh, it's not slang indeed, it's a fairly formal way of addressing a female superior and I think the "palm" sound is the one used in police force. (At least, it's consistently pronounced that way in all the police dramas I've watched on telly.)
I only mentioned the "royal" version because the "palm" pronunciation is often popularly thought to be correct in that setting which it's not.

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Usenet · Answer

Thank you very much! :-)
Arne H. Wilstrup
Denmark
"HVS" (Email Removed) skrev i meddelelsen

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"Ma'am" is from "Madame"; it's a polite formal usage for ... in that case it rhymes with "pam", not with "palm".)[/nq]
[nq:1]??? I understand the answer, but I am pretty sure that the policepersons refer to their female superior as "mam" which rhymes with "palm" - is this usual BrE or just slang?[/nq]
I've seen it written "marm" as well, and I always wondered whether it really was a pronunciation of "ma'am" or had some different derivation.

¬R http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/bluemoon.html
"Nothing says 'Thursday' quite like Ira Fusfeld."

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I've seen it written "marm" as well, and I always wondered whether it really was a pronunciation of "ma'am" or ... or the "mahm" pronunciation of "moddom". You will, of course, have heard or read "schoolmarm" in books of olden days.[/nq]
How do you say "ah" when the doctor tells you to "open wider", when he checks your tonsils? (aa or ah?) That is how I hear many British "a" sounds. . .as in madam.
Well, when I say "Yes, ma'am", I am pronouncing it as mam (a as in cat). I think some call that the "broad a".
US Upper Midwest.

Pat Durkin
durkinpa at msn.com
Wisconsin

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]On 31 Jul 2008, Arne H. Wilstrup wrote[/nq]
[nq:2]In the tv-series "The Bill" the police use a lot ... a leader. Question: where do these word derive from etymothologially?[/nq]
[nq:1]"Ma'am" is from "Madame";[/nq]
I'd say 'Madam'. OED agrees
[nq:1]"Guv" is short for "guv'nor/governor" it's an informal term for your boss.[/nq]
'guv' tends to be reserved in the police for bosses of the rank of Inspector and above. If your boss is a sergeant, he/she is usually 'skipper' or 'skip'.
[nq:2]and what is the differences between "mam", "chief" and "gov'"? ... so, what is the upper rank in the police force?[/nq]
'mam' and 'guv' are terms used for direct address of a senior - the former for a woman, the latter for a man. 'chief' is not usually used for direct address of a senior (but may be used jocularly where 'squire' would also fit) but when used about someone else would usually mean someone of the rank of Chief Inspector or, possibly, the Chief Constable - as in "Wait until the Chief hears about this".
The highest rank in any given English Police Force is Chief Constable except for the Met and the City of London where it's the Commissioner. The most senior officer on the whole of England and Wales is arguably the Chief Inspector of Constabulary.
[nq:2]3. Chiefinspector, CID, etc. are some words often used in detective stories. Question: what are the official designations in the London Police Force[/nq]
[nq:1]London's police are the Metropolitan Police, usually abbreviated to "the Met"; I don't know the ranking orders.[/nq]
Well, the Metropolitan Police cover most of London but the City of London Police cover the City (the 'square mile') and the Transport Police cover the Underground and the railways.
[nq:2]4. The Bill probably takes place in a policedistrict "Sun ... a district in London called "Sun Hill" with a policestation?[/nq]
[nq:1]No; it's fictional.[/nq]
The area in which Sun Hill is fictionally located is based on Tower Hamlets, which has six cop shops in real life:
http://cms.met.police.uk/met/boroughs/tower hamlets/index

There *is* a Police station called Snow Hill but it's part of the City of London, not the Met.

John Dean
Oxford

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I've seen it written "marm" as well, and I always wondered whether it really was a pronunciation of "ma'am" or had some different derivation.[/nq]
[nq:1]I am pretty sure the "marm" pronunciation is just one more indication of the "rhotic" intrusion or the "mahm" pronunciation of "moddom". You will, of course, have heard or read "schoolmarm" in books of olden days.[/nq]
This is a revelation! I have met "schoolmarm" in texts, but since it was always clear from context what it means, I never bothered to check a dictionary. If pressed, I would have guessed it comes from "marmot" or"marmoset"; never would I've thunk about ma'am. Same about "psych" used as a tease in kids/teens conversations. When hearing it, I was convinced it is a unrelated word spelled "syke". That's what one gets, of course, by subconsciously associating the spelling "psych" with the pronunciation {psix}.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]On 31 Jul 2008, Arne H. Wilstrup wrote[/nq]
...
It's all part of dumbing down process in Britain that's headed-up by the BBC (the unofficially Government sponsored broadcasting Corporation - aided and abetted by other TV channels). The more stupid someone sounds the more acceptable it is. Foreigners usually speak MUCH better English than natives now.
Sorry - but it's true.
As for the police force in London, well the actual City of London police are one force and the Metropolitan another - they cover Greater London (a far wider area).

'mam' and 'gov'

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