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Usenet Posted 21 years ago
Screenwriting
LOTR character importance
[nq:2] I don't think Sam counts across the whole trilogy. He's more important in ROTK.[/nq]
Actually upon further contemplation, I think Sam is merely an adjucnct to Frodo throughout the films.
[nq:2]Galdalf is a main character throughout. Gollum is a main character in TT and ROTK.[/nq]
[nq:1]Naw. Gandalf has no arc at all -- he's the definition of a one-string character with a lot of screen time.[/nq]
Gandalf the Grey is a bumbler. Gandalf the White is more of a combat leader. It's not a huge change, but he has been to the other side of death. And since when do main characters have to arc? Nobody arcs in Greek or Indian myths, the main characters do exactly what they always do. Arcing is an American cultural fixation. Characters have to emotionally grow or they're just not valid In-duh-viduals.
[nq:1]We are almost never asked to see a scene from his eyes unless there's nobody else there who we can do it with.[/nq]
I suppose the opening Smeagol / Gollum scenes in ROTK are filmed from Smeagol / Gollum's perspective. I suppose the Dead Halls of Durrenharrow are centered around Aragorn, as is the approach of the army to Mordor. Frodo's got plenty of Frodo-centric scenes.
So hmm, by this metric, what are the Gandalf-centric moments? Certainly, when he fights the Balrog on the bridge of Khazad-dum. You might object that he's seen from Frodo's perspective across the bridge. Again, when Gandalf reappears in Fangorn Forest. You might object that he's seen from Aragorn's perspective, before they try to shoot him. I think Gandalf in front of the gates of Moria is truly Gandalf-centric. Gandalf commands a lot in the siege of Minas Tirith. But I guess you could say sometimes it's about Denethor, sometimes it's about Pippen, and commanding extras is effectively Gandalf alone. Gandalf also leads the cavalry charge at Helm's Deep. But maybe you'd say that's really about Aragorn?
[nq:1]Just out of curiosity, who do you think the 18 "main characters" are?[/nq]
Well, it was Fran's number IIRC. I'd classify the characters in the following sets of importance. My rankings are based upon their relevance to the entire trilogy.
Group I: 1.Frodo 2. Aragorn
Group II: 3. Sam 4. Merry 5. Pippin 6. Gandalf 7. Gollum
Group III: 8. Legolas 9. Gimli
Group IV: 10. Saruman 11. Theodin 12. Eowin
Group V: 13. Boromir 14. Arwen
Group VI: 15. Faramir 16. Denethor 17. Elrond 18. Galadriel
I can't call all these guys "main characters" with a straight face, but I can certainly call them all "important characters."
-- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real. 80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Actually upon further contemplation, I think Sam is merely an adjucnct to Frodo throughout the films.
[nq:2]Galdalf is a main character throughout. Gollum is a main character in TT and ROTK.[/nq]
[nq:1]Naw. Gandalf has no arc at all -- he's the definition of a one-string character with a lot of screen time.[/nq]
Gandalf the Grey is a bumbler. Gandalf the White is more of a combat leader. It's not a huge change, but he has been to the other side of death. And since when do main characters have to arc? Nobody arcs in Greek or Indian myths, the main characters do exactly what they always do. Arcing is an American cultural fixation. Characters have to emotionally grow or they're just not valid In-duh-viduals.
[nq:1]We are almost never asked to see a scene from his eyes unless there's nobody else there who we can do it with.[/nq]
I suppose the opening Smeagol / Gollum scenes in ROTK are filmed from Smeagol / Gollum's perspective. I suppose the Dead Halls of Durrenharrow are centered around Aragorn, as is the approach of the army to Mordor. Frodo's got plenty of Frodo-centric scenes.
So hmm, by this metric, what are the Gandalf-centric moments? Certainly, when he fights the Balrog on the bridge of Khazad-dum. You might object that he's seen from Frodo's perspective across the bridge. Again, when Gandalf reappears in Fangorn Forest. You might object that he's seen from Aragorn's perspective, before they try to shoot him. I think Gandalf in front of the gates of Moria is truly Gandalf-centric. Gandalf commands a lot in the siege of Minas Tirith. But I guess you could say sometimes it's about Denethor, sometimes it's about Pippen, and commanding extras is effectively Gandalf alone. Gandalf also leads the cavalry charge at Helm's Deep. But maybe you'd say that's really about Aragorn?
[nq:1]Just out of curiosity, who do you think the 18 "main characters" are?[/nq]
Well, it was Fran's number IIRC. I'd classify the characters in the following sets of importance. My rankings are based upon their relevance to the entire trilogy.
Group I: 1.Frodo 2. Aragorn
Group II: 3. Sam 4. Merry 5. Pippin 6. Gandalf 7. Gollum
Group III: 8. Legolas 9. Gimli
Group IV: 10. Saruman 11. Theodin 12. Eowin
Group V: 13. Boromir 14. Arwen
Group VI: 15. Faramir 16. Denethor 17. Elrond 18. Galadriel
I can't call all these guys "main characters" with a straight face, but I can certainly call them all "important characters."
-- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real. 80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Top answer
[/nq] A non-Tolkien-reading friend who saw the movie made an interesting and insightful comment: "I thought he was supposed to be a wizard? I kept thinking, 'Why doesn't he do some magic instead of just ordering people about? uk
- [/nq] A non-Tolkien-reading friend who saw the movie made an interesting and insightful comment: "I thought he was supposed to be a wizard?
- I kept thinking, 'Why doesn't he do some magic instead of just ordering people about?
- uk
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59 Answers
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[nq:1]Gandalf commands a lot in the siege of Minas Tirith.[/nq]
A non-Tolkien-reading friend who saw the movie made an interesting and insightful comment: "I thought he was supposed to be a wizard? I kept thinking, 'Why doesn't he do some magic instead of just ordering people about? Isn't he more powerful than anyone else there?'"
Bert
A non-Tolkien-reading friend who saw the movie made an interesting and insightful comment: "I thought he was supposed to be a wizard? I kept thinking, 'Why doesn't he do some magic instead of just ordering people about? Isn't he more powerful than anyone else there?'"
Bert
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[nq:1]So hmm, by this metric, what are the Gandalf-centric moments? Certainly, when he fights the Balrog on the bridge of Khazad-dum.[/nq]
Naw... a lot of this is fought from the perspective of the fellowship. Think of the last shot, and where you are emotionally in the scene -- at the end, he falls away from us, we've lost his, etc...
Of course, this is kind of an amorphous thing.
Naw... a lot of this is fought from the perspective of the fellowship. Think of the last shot, and where you are emotionally in the scene -- at the end, he falls away from us, we've lost his, etc...
Of course, this is kind of an amorphous thing.
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[nq:2]Gandalf commands a lot in the siege of Minas Tirith.[/nq]
[nq:1]A non-Tolkien-reading friend who saw the movie made an interesting and insightful comment: "I thought he was supposed to be a wizard? I kept thinking, 'Why doesn't he do some magic instead of just ordering people about? Isn't he more powerful than anyone else there?'"[/nq]
It's because Peter Jackson doesn't like
[nq:1]A non-Tolkien-reading friend who saw the movie made an interesting and insightful comment: "I thought he was supposed to be a wizard? I kept thinking, 'Why doesn't he do some magic instead of just ordering people about? Isn't he more powerful than anyone else there?'"[/nq]
It's because Peter Jackson doesn't like
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[nq:2]I can't call all these guys "main characters" with a straight face, but I can certainly call them all "important characters."[/nq]
[nq:1]I can't even go that far. I'm glad they didn't, but you could cut Galadriel out of the screenplay almost painlessly, if not for issues of fidelity to the source material. Likewise for Arwen -- and the story might even be improved by her omission.[/nq]
[nq:1]I can't even go that far. I'm glad they didn't, but you could cut Galadriel out of the screenplay almost painlessly, if not for issues of fidelity to the source material. Likewise for Arwen -- and the story might even be improved by her omission.[/nq]
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[nq:1]It's because Peter Jackson doesn't like magic. He has deliberately minimized the use of magic in all of the movies.[/nq]
That's an interesting point, and one which hadn't really occurred to me. Thanks.
One big aspect of the book which I did miss in the films is the pervasive feeling that the events being acted out are part of a much bigger, pre-ordained picture, that wha
That's an interesting point, and one which hadn't really occurred to me. Thanks.
One big aspect of the book which I did miss in the films is the pervasive feeling that the events being acted out are part of a much bigger, pre-ordained picture, that wha
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[nq:2]It's because Peter Jackson doesn't like magic. He has deliberately minimized the use of magic in all of the movies.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's an interesting point, and one which hadn't really occurred to me. Thanks.[/nq]
The contrast is particularly striking if you read Tolkien's descriptions of Gandalf's magic. Gandalf is an "incendiaries and napalm" kinda guy! But, repelling wolves on the
[nq:1]That's an interesting point, and one which hadn't really occurred to me. Thanks.[/nq]
The contrast is particularly striking if you read Tolkien's descriptions of Gandalf's magic. Gandalf is an "incendiaries and napalm" kinda guy! But, repelling wolves on the
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[nq:1]This sort of magical showboating is exactly the sort of thing Peter Jackson can't stand.[/nq]
Has he actually said as much, or are you assuming this from the films themselves?
[nq:1]I would also caution that there's a difference between "prophecy" and "pre-ordained determinism."[/nq]
Well yes, of course there is; I don't think I suggested otherwise.
[nq:1]I don't know if you
Has he actually said as much, or are you assuming this from the films themselves?
[nq:1]I would also caution that there's a difference between "prophecy" and "pre-ordained determinism."[/nq]
Well yes, of course there is; I don't think I suggested otherwise.
[nq:1]I don't know if you
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[nq:2]This sort of magical showboating is exactly the sort of thing Peter Jackson can't stand.[/nq]
[nq:1]Has he actually said as much, or are you assuming this from the films themselves?[/nq]
He said that on the Fellowship DVD, when talking about the duel between Gandalf and Saruman.
[nq:2]I don't know if you desire that people's actions be pre-ordained, but I certainly don't.[/nq]
[nq:1]Has he actually said as much, or are you assuming this from the films themselves?[/nq]
He said that on the Fellowship DVD, when talking about the duel between Gandalf and Saruman.
[nq:2]I don't know if you desire that people's actions be pre-ordained, but I certainly don't.[/nq]
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[nq:1]You were not convinced that Ents are ancient?[/nq]
No, I was not convinced that the Treebeard we were given in the films was anything other than a computer-generated cartoon. I didn't believe in him at all.
Bert http://www.bertcoules.co.uk
No, I was not convinced that the Treebeard we were given in the films was anything other than a computer-generated cartoon. I didn't believe in him at all.
Bert http://www.bertcoules.co.uk
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[nq:1]Arwen influences Aragorn's action. If you cut her, then you'd have to cut Eowyn, and leave women out of Aragorn's life. Now, let's say you cut Galadriel too... you're talking about a "no chicks" LOTR. A little imbalanced for the public, don't you think?[/nq]
That's kind of a non-sequitir. Arwen actually hardly influences Aragorn, and most of how he does was added in the film (and isn't
That's kind of a non-sequitir. Arwen actually hardly influences Aragorn, and most of how he does was added in the film (and isn't
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