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Usenet Posted 21 years ago
Usage
"long" vowels and "short" vowels
Some remarks from different posters in recent days suggest that it's time to discuss again the conflict between two different meanings of "long" and of "short".
When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us that the "a" in "rake" was "long a" and the "a" in "rack" was short "a". And the vowels in "peek", "pike", "poke", "root" were long while the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", and "rut" were short.
There is another meaning for each of "short vowel" and "long vowel", and it's the one phoneticians are most likely to have in mind when they use those terms. That is, a short vowel is one whose duration is short, and a long vowel is one whose duration is long. That is the meaning of "long" and "short" that corresponds to the presence or absence of a colon after a vowel in the International Phonetic Alphabet.
I've read that there is a connection between the two concepts, in that the vowels that are now referred to by elementary school teachers as "long" and "short" were indeed long or short in duration when the words were applied to them. In modern English, the vowel in "peek" may be pronounced with relatively long duration or relatively short duration, but it's still a high front vowel. And the vowel in "pick" may be pronounced with either long or short duration without making it anything but an near-high, near-front vowel.
It would be good if everyone would avoid using the terms "long vowel" and "short vowel" as we learned them in elementary school, saving them to describe actual relative duration.
When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us that the "a" in "rake" was "long a" and the "a" in "rack" was short "a". And the vowels in "peek", "pike", "poke", "root" were long while the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", and "rut" were short.
There is another meaning for each of "short vowel" and "long vowel", and it's the one phoneticians are most likely to have in mind when they use those terms. That is, a short vowel is one whose duration is short, and a long vowel is one whose duration is long. That is the meaning of "long" and "short" that corresponds to the presence or absence of a colon after a vowel in the International Phonetic Alphabet.
I've read that there is a connection between the two concepts, in that the vowels that are now referred to by elementary school teachers as "long" and "short" were indeed long or short in duration when the words were applied to them. In modern English, the vowel in "peek" may be pronounced with relatively long duration or relatively short duration, but it's still a high front vowel. And the vowel in "pick" may be pronounced with either long or short duration without making it anything but an near-high, near-front vowel.
It would be good if everyone would avoid using the terms "long vowel" and "short vowel" as we learned them in elementary school, saving them to describe actual relative duration.
Top answer
Bob Cunningham filted: [nq:1]When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us that the "a" in "rake" was "long a" and the ... nor is it "root" sounds like "route", which may or may not sound like "rout".. r
- Bob Cunningham filted: [nq:1]When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us that the "a" in "rake" was "long a" and the ...
- nor is it "root" sounds like "route", which may or may not sound like "rout"..
- r
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132 Answers
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Bob Cunningham filted:
[nq:1]When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us that the "a" in "rake" was "long a" and the ... the vowels in "peek", "pike", "poke", "root" were long while the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", and "rut" were short.[/nq]
That's "root" rhymes with "toot", not "root" rhymes with "foot" (a different short counterpart)...nor is it "root" sounds like "rout
[nq:1]When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us that the "a" in "rake" was "long a" and the ... the vowels in "peek", "pike", "poke", "root" were long while the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", and "rut" were short.[/nq]
That's "root" rhymes with "toot", not "root" rhymes with "foot" (a different short counterpart)...nor is it "root" sounds like "rout
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[nq:1]Bob Cunningham filted:[/nq]
[nq:2]When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us ... the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", and "rut" were short.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's "root" rhymes with "toot", not "root" rhymes with "foot" (adifferent short counterpart)...nor is it "root" sounds like "route", which ... doesn't work when you need the "caught" (aka"lawn" for the CIC) vowel...or
[nq:2]When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us ... the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", and "rut" were short.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's "root" rhymes with "toot", not "root" rhymes with "foot" (adifferent short counterpart)...nor is it "root" sounds like "route", which ... doesn't work when you need the "caught" (aka"lawn" for the CIC) vowel...or
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} Bob Cunningham filted:
}>
}>When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us }>that the "a" in "rake" was "long a" and the "a" in "rack" }>was short "a". And the vowels in "peek", "pike", "poke", }>"root" were long while the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", }>and "rut" were short.
}
} That's "root" rhymes with "toot", not "root" rhymes with "foot" (a di
}>
}>When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us }>that the "a" in "rake" was "long a" and the "a" in "rack" }>was short "a". And the vowels in "peek", "pike", "poke", }>"root" were long while the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", }>and "rut" were short.
}
} That's "root" rhymes with "toot", not "root" rhymes with "foot" (a di
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R J Valentine filted:
[nq:1]I heard a British-sounding speaker on (the) television today pronouncing "what" with the "aw" vowel (where the "swat" vowel might have been less surprising to me).[/nq]
Was she dressed all in white, and selling chewing gum?...r
[nq:1]I heard a British-sounding speaker on (the) television today pronouncing "what" with the "aw" vowel (where the "swat" vowel might have been less surprising to me).[/nq]
Was she dressed all in white, and selling chewing gum?...r
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On 28 Jan 2005 20:09:37 -0800, R H Draney
[nq:1]Bob Cunningham filted:[/nq]
[nq:2]When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us ... the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", and "rut" were short.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's "root" rhymes with "toot", not "root" rhymes with "foot" (a different short counterpart)...nor is it "root" sounds like "route", ... when you need the "caught" (aka "l
[nq:1]Bob Cunningham filted:[/nq]
[nq:2]When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us ... the vowels in "peck", "pick", "pock", and "rut" were short.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's "root" rhymes with "toot", not "root" rhymes with "foot" (a different short counterpart)...nor is it "root" sounds like "route", ... when you need the "caught" (aka "l
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[nq:1]By the way, for the benefit of a newcomer who may be puzzled by unexplained abbreviations, I think I've read that "CIC" stands for "'caught' is 'cot'"[/nq]
Actually, CIC stands for "cot is caught".
Steny '08!
Actually, CIC stands for "cot is caught".
Steny '08!
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[nq:2]By the way, for the benefit of a newcomer who ... think I've read that "CIC" stands for "'caught' is 'cot'"[/nq]
[nq:1]Actually, CIC stands for "cot is caught".[/nq]
It can stand for "cigar is chameleon" for all I really care.
The basic idea is so ill-defined that it leaves people with a simplistic, misleading idea of how pronunciations vary from one community to another and
[nq:1]Actually, CIC stands for "cot is caught".[/nq]
It can stand for "cigar is chameleon" for all I really care.
The basic idea is so ill-defined that it leaves people with a simplistic, misleading idea of how pronunciations vary from one community to another and
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...
} I continue to believe that differences between "cot" and } "caught" can be practically a continuum from identical } through somewhat different to completely different } pronunciations, so an attempted distinction between "caught } is cot" and "caught is not cot" dialects is an exercise in } futility.
Kind of like the values of 1 and 2, eh? North and south? Young and old?
R.
} I continue to believe that differences between "cot" and } "caught" can be practically a continuum from identical } through somewhat different to completely different } pronunciations, so an attempted distinction between "caught } is cot" and "caught is not cot" dialects is an exercise in } futility.
Kind of like the values of 1 and 2, eh? North and south? Young and old?
R.
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[nq:1]} Bob Cunningham filted: }> }>When we were in elementary school, the teacher taught us }>that the "a" in "rake" ... (the) television today pronouncing "what" with the "aw" vowel (where the "swat" vowel might have been less surprising to me).[/nq]
Poor chap was pu'in on the Ritz no doubt; from Huddersfield, he may have had one too many at the 'Boll and Botcher' and was feeling ho
Poor chap was pu'in on the Ritz no doubt; from Huddersfield, he may have had one too many at the 'Boll and Botcher' and was feeling ho
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Because the preceding paragraph has been quoted out of context, someone who has just tuned in may get completely the wrong impression from it. The only reason I made those remarks was as a preliminary to saying that the grade-school concepts of "long" and "short" vowels are relatively unimportant compared to the quite different way "long" and "short" are used by phoneticians, which is to refer to
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