Live in London or moved out of London?

Question

1. I haven't heard from her since she lived in London.(Does this mean after she moved out of London, I haven't heard from her?)2. I haven't heard from her since she has lived in London.(I know this means after she moved into London and lived there, I haven't heard from her)Similarly, I am not sure about the meanings of these sentences.3. His health has been seriously damaged since he has smoked.(I know this means after he began to smoke, his health has been damaged)4. His health has been seriously damaged since he smoked.(Does this mean after he quit smoking, his health has been damaged?)5. His health has been seriously damaged since he has begun to smoke.(What does it mean?)6. His health has been seriously damaged since he began to smoke.(What does it mean?)Thank you very much.

Teechr · Accepted Answer

#1 is unnatural. Use "moved to" or "started living in" or "went to live in" instead of "lived in."
#2 is incorrect; we don't use the present perfect (which indicates a duration) after "since" (which needs a point in time).
For the rest, use:
His health seriously deteriorated after he started/began to smoke.

Zuotengdazuo · Answer

teechr#1 is unnatural. Use "moved to" or "started living in" or "went to live in" instead of "lived in."#2 is incorrect; we don't use the present perfect (which indicates a duration) after "since" (which needs a point in time).For the rest, use:His health seriously deteriorated after he started/began to smoke.

Thank you very much. But I still have some questions.
1. So do you suggest that we shouldn't use this structure "... since sb + durative verb(smoke/live, etc)" because it is ambiguous and can be interpreted in two ways(it can refer to either "after an event began to happen" or "after an event finished")?
2. According to Advanced Grammar in Use,

However, we can use a present perfect in the since-clause if the two situations described in the main and the since-clause extend until the present:
Since I've lived here, I haven't seen my neighbors.

and according to A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language,
we can see such example sentences:
He's been getting bad headaches since he has been in the army.
So present perfect after "since" is possibe, but I don't know how I can interpret it correctly.
3. I think sentence 3 and sentence 6 are not incorrect grammatically. What do you think?
I think they are correct and mean the same thing.

CalifJim · Answer

zuotengdazuo1. I haven't heard from her since she lived in London.(Does this mean after she moved out of London, I haven't heard from her?)

That's how I would interpret it. It might be clearer thus: ... since [the time / the days] she lived in London.

zuotengdazuo2. I haven't heard from her since she has lived in London.(I know this means after she moved into London and lived there, I haven't heard from her)

That's how I would interpret it. It might be clearer thus: ... since she moved to London.
_______________

Of 3 - 6, the only one I might use is 6. He began to smoke, and that's when his health was damaged. This state of his health has continued until now.

CJ

Zuotengdazuo · Answer

CalifJim zuotengdazuo1. I haven't heard from her since she lived in London.(Does this mean after she moved out of London, I haven't heard from her?)That's how I would interpret it. It might be clearer thus: ... since [the time / the days] she lived in London.

Thank you for your opinion.
1. So do you mean both these structures"... since sb + durative verb(smoke/live, etc)" and "...since sb + have/has (ed)" are correct?
2. If that is the case, then sentence #1 #2 #3 #4 are all correct grammatically, right?
3. If they are all correct grammatically, then are these interpretations right?

3. His health has been seriously damaged since he has smoked.( = His health has been seriously damaged since he bean to smoke= After he began to smoke, his health has been damaged)
4. His health has been seriously damaged since he smoked. (this mean after he quit smoking, his health has been damaged)

CalifJim · Answer

zuotengdazuo"... since sb + durative verb(smoke/live, etc)" and "...since sb + have/has (ed)"

I'm not sure what combinations of tenses after "since" you are talking about, but I assume you're asking if both the simple past and the present perfect are correct after "since". (They can be.) And then you add something about durative verbs, which complicates things even more.

I don't know what formula you're looking for, but I suspect that you believe that if you find this formula, you'll be able to generate all sentences like this with "since" without fear of making a mistake. I wish I had the answer for you, but I don't think I do. We can't even be sure there is an answer that explains every case.
___________

One of the problems is that sometimes a clause may look like it expresses a state (durative) when it doesn't necessarily express a state. This is true of "has been seriously damaged", which sounds to me more like an event than something stative.

This disobedient child has damaged my favorite chair. (event)
The chair has been seriously damaged. (event)
____________

But to return to your question more directly, both #3 and #4 seem unnatural to me. They seem to be trying to express a state in the main clause, but the words don't succeed in doing that. My ear wants something more like the following:

He has been in poor health since he began to smoke. ('state' since 'event')

I should probably take some time next month to think of examples. There should be "state since state", "state since event", "event since state", and "event since event", but I don't think all of those are possible. I have to think about it more.

CJ

Fivejedjon · Answer

CalifJim I have to think about it more.

I have been thinking about this for a very long time, and have been unable to come up with simple, all-embracing 'rules'.

Zuotengdazuo · Answer

CalifJim I'm not sure what combinations of tenses after "since" you are talking about, but I assume you're asking if both the simple past and the present perfect are correct after "since". (They can be.) And then you add something about durative verbs, which complicates things even more.I don't know what formula you're looking for, but I suspect that you believe that if you find this formula, you'll be able to generate all sentences like this with "since" without fear of making a mistake.

Thank you for your further reply. Yes, that's exactly what I mean. But now I am not focusing on finding a general formula(I know it is hard to find), but I just want to get a clear understanding of these example sentences.

CalifJim One of the problems is that sometimes a clause may look like it expresses a state (durative) when it doesn't necessarily express a state. This is true of "has been seriously damaged", which sounds to me more like an event than something stative.This disobedient child has damaged my favorite chair. (event)The chair has been seriously damaged. (event)____________But to return to your question more directly, both #3 and #4 seem unnatural to me. They seem to be trying to express a state in the main clause, but the words don't succeed in doing that. My ear wants something more like the following:He has been in poor health since he began to smoke. ('state' since 'event')I should

Right now I don't concern myself about whether I want to succeed in expressing a state in the main clause, but about whether describing a something stative in since-clause is correct or not
So do you mean sentence #1 #2 #3 #4 are all unnatural and ambiguous although they are all grammatically possible? For example, #1 and #2 can both mean either "I haven't heard from her since she moved to London" or "I haven't heard from her since she moved away from London", right?
If that is the case, then I would rewrite some of them and try to interpret them:
3. He has been in poor health since he smoked. (After he quit smoking, his health has been a poor state)
4. He has been in poor health since he has smoked.(This is equivalent to "He has been in poor health since he began to smoke.", meaning "He has been in poor health after he began to smoke)

CalifJim ('state' since 'event')I should probably take some time next month to think of examples. There should be "state since state", "state since event", "event since state", and "event since event", but I don't think all of those are possible. I have to think about it more.CJ

I am not thinking that far, but you have made a good point. Yes, if we can figure out if "state since state", "state since event", "event since state", and "event since event" are all possible, then we can resolve this question once and for all.

Zuotengdazuo · Answer

fivejedjon CalifJim I have to think about it more.I have been thinking about this for a very long time, and have been unable to come up with simple, all-embracing 'rules'.

I am sorry to hear that. That's a very frustrating fact that there might not be such "rules".

Fivejedjon · Answer

zuotengdazuoIf that is the case, then I would rewrite some of them and try to interpret them:3. He has been in poor health since he smoked. (After he quit smoking, his health has been a poor state)4. He has been in poor health since he has smoked.(This is equivalent to "He has been in poor health since he began to smoke.", meaning "He has been in poor health after he began to smoke)

One real problem is that you are trying to force meanings onto sentences that native speakers would not say in the first place. If you want to convey the message of "He has been in poor health since he quit smoking", then use those words. Similarly, if you want to convey the message of "He has been in poor health since he began to smoke", then use those words.

Zuotengdazuo · Answer

fivejedjon zuotengdazuoIf that is the case, then I would rewrite some of them and try to interpret them:3. He has been in poor health since he smoked. (After he quit smoking, his health has been a poor state)4. He has been in poor health since he has smoked.(This is equivalent to "He has been in poor health since he began to smoke.", meaning "He has been in poor health after he began to smoke)One real problem is that you are trying to force meanings onto sentences that native speakers would not say in the first place. If you want to convey the message of "He has been in poor health since he quit smoking", then use those words. Similarly, if you want to convey the message of "He has been in poor health since he began to smoke", then use those words.

OK. I see. The problem is that I didn't know my examples sentences are not ok because I have seen the likes of them many times in my grammar book by a Chinese professor. This leads to me considering them correct and natural. I came here to ask questions about them only because I found the professor's explanation of these sentences is at odds with my original understanding. So I want to consult you if I understand this structure correctly.
So do you suggest that I shouldn't use this structure(since+state, namely, since+durative verb in present perfect or in simple past) because it is both ambiguous and unnatural?

Live in London or moved out of London?

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