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Usenet Posted 22 years ago
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Kol b'seder= copacetic
A colleague of mine tried to convince me that "copacetic" derives from the Hebrew "kol b'seder." I was surprised to find that many etymologists believe this is the likeliest source of the word. I find this ridiculous for several reasons, We know that the word first surfaces in Black English in the Southern USA in the early 1920s. Accordong to legend, sometime before this some Black customer would have asked some Jewish mercahnt "How things were going" and he would have responded "kol b'seder" (everything is in order) to the query.
Is it not highly unlikely that a Jewish merchant at the turn of the 20th century would be responding in Hebrew, given that the language was not used as a vernacular at the time? Also, although "kol b'seder" is used as a catchphrase nowadays in modern Hebrew would it be likely to be used more than 100 years ago when the term supposedly morphed into "copacetic"? I would think that if any Hebrew expression was used a century ago, it was more likely "ha kol b'seder" not just "b'seder."
Any thoughts?
Is it not highly unlikely that a Jewish merchant at the turn of the 20th century would be responding in Hebrew, given that the language was not used as a vernacular at the time? Also, although "kol b'seder" is used as a catchphrase nowadays in modern Hebrew would it be likely to be used more than 100 years ago when the term supposedly morphed into "copacetic"? I would think that if any Hebrew expression was used a century ago, it was more likely "ha kol b'seder" not just "b'seder."
Any thoughts?
Top answer
" I was surprised to ... [/nq] Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish and black musicians played happily together (though they couldn't stay in the same hotels when they toured the South), so it's entirely possible that black musicians picked up words of Yinglish. ) Peter T.
- " I was surprised to ...
- [/nq] Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish and black musicians played happily together (though they couldn't stay in the same hotels when they toured the South), so it's entirely possible that black musicians picked up words of Yinglish.
- ) Peter T.
- Daniels (Email Removed)
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41 Answers
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[nq:1]A colleague of mine tried to convince me that "copacetic" derives from the Hebrew "kol b'seder." I was surprised to ... Hebrew expression was used a century ago, it was more likely "ha kol b'seder" not just "b'seder." Any thoughts?[/nq]
Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish and black musicians played happily together
Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish and black musicians played happily together
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Je Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:58:44 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels" (Email Removed) skribis:
[nq:2]A colleague of mine tried to convince me that "copacetic" derives from the Hebrew "kol b'seder." I was surprised to find that many[/nq]
[nq:1]Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish ... that black musicians picked up words of Yinglish. (It
[nq:2]A colleague of mine tried to convince me that "copacetic" derives from the Hebrew "kol b'seder." I was surprised to find that many[/nq]
[nq:1]Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish ... that black musicians picked up words of Yinglish. (It
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[nq:2]Or, we know that it was used in the jazz ... with one person in particular was it Cab Calloway?)[/nq]
[nq:1]I don't know any Yiddish or Hebrew. Maybe there is some overlap, but the two languages are not the same. ... were debates over what language to use, and some were opposed to Yiddish because it was considered a "corrupted tongue"[/nq]
The revival of Hebrew as a spoken language b
[nq:1]I don't know any Yiddish or Hebrew. Maybe there is some overlap, but the two languages are not the same. ... were debates over what language to use, and some were opposed to Yiddish because it was considered a "corrupted tongue"[/nq]
The revival of Hebrew as a spoken language b
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[nq:1]Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish ... that black musicians picked up words of Yinglish. (It's associated with one person in particular was it Cab Calloway?)[/nq]
Cab Calloway's performance of "Utt Da Zay" ("That's the Way") is on the album "From Avenue A to the Great White Way", on which it follows Slim Gaillard's
Cab Calloway's performance of "Utt Da Zay" ("That's the Way") is on the album "From Avenue A to the Great White Way", on which it follows Slim Gaillard's
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I read in sci.lang.translation that howard richler (Email Removed) wrote (in ) about 'kol b'seder= copacetic', on Wed, 6 Oct 2004:
[nq:1]A colleague of mine tried to convince me that "copacetic" derives from the Hebrew "kol b'seder." I was surprised to ... Hebrew expression was used a century ago, it was more likely "ha kol b'seder" not just "b'seder." Any thoughts?[/nq]
The word looks muc
[nq:1]A colleague of mine tried to convince me that "copacetic" derives from the Hebrew "kol b'seder." I was surprised to ... Hebrew expression was used a century ago, it was more likely "ha kol b'seder" not just "b'seder." Any thoughts?[/nq]
The word looks muc
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I read in sci.lang.translation that Peter T. Daniels (Email Removed) wrote (in (Email Removed)) about 'kol b'seder= copacetic', on Wed, 6 Oct 2004:
[nq:1](It's associated with one person in particular was it Cab Calloway?)[/nq]
In that case, it could be a pure invention or a child's mispronunciation.
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothin
[nq:1](It's associated with one person in particular was it Cab Calloway?)[/nq]
In that case, it could be a pure invention or a child's mispronunciation.
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothin
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[nq:2]A colleague of mine tried to convince me that "copacetic" ... likely "ha kol b'seder" not just "b'seder." Any thoughts?[/nq]
[nq:1]Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish ... that black musicians picked up words of Yinglish. (It's associated with one person in particular was it Cab Calloway?)[/nq]
Bill "Bojangles" R
[nq:1]Or, we know that it was used in the jazz world, and the jazz world was notoriously non-discriminatory Jewish ... that black musicians picked up words of Yinglish. (It's associated with one person in particular was it Cab Calloway?)[/nq]
Bill "Bojangles" R
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[nq:1]The word looks much more like 'Latin' or 'Greek' than 'kol b'seder', which appears to me to share no sound with it except the 'k' and 's'.[/nq]
?? They're all but identical.
Same stress pattern; identical vowels; l > w or 0 C; b = p, d = t V V; and the final weak syllable could easily change to the familiar .
[nq:1]These coinings sometimes arise out of nothing at all, a child
?? They're all but identical.
Same stress pattern; identical vowels; l > w or 0 C; b = p, d = t V V; and the final weak syllable could easily change to the familiar .
[nq:1]These coinings sometimes arise out of nothing at all, a child
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[nq:2]Or, we know that it was used in the jazz ... with one person in particular was it Cab Calloway?)[/nq]
[nq:1]Bill "Bojangles" Robinson. It may go back as far as 1911, according to the ever-unreliable Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins .[/nq]
Is it in any of the Shirley Temple movies?
Peter T. Daniels (Email Removed)
[nq:1]Bill "Bojangles" Robinson. It may go back as far as 1911, according to the ever-unreliable Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins .[/nq]
Is it in any of the Shirley Temple movies?
Peter T. Daniels (Email Removed)
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[nq:1]These coinings sometimes arise out of nothing at all, a child's mispronunciation picked up and copied by parents, or a ... the word is from Black English, it could be a corruption of a word in an African or Carib language.[/nq]
Possible. From the OED:1919 I. BACHELLER Man for Ages iv. 69 ?As to looks I'd call him, as ye mightsay, real copasetic.? Mrs. Lukins expressed this opinion solemn
Possible. From the OED:1919 I. BACHELLER Man for Ages iv. 69 ?As to looks I'd call him, as ye mightsay, real copasetic.? Mrs. Lukins expressed this opinion solemn
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