Keeping schtum

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I just had cause to use this expression in a posting elsewhere, and, having done a little Googling to check whether my spelling was right or not (I couldn't find it in my desk dictionary), I was surprised to see that it doesn't appear to have been discussed here before.
Reading a few references suggested that it's of Yiddish origin, but that its original spelling is "stumm". With some (largely lost now) German from schooldays I
subconsciously went for what would look right (to me) in German.
Philip Eden

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I just had cause to use this expression in a posting elsewhere, and, having done a little Googling to check ... With some (largely lost now) German from schooldays I subconsciously went for what would look right (to me) in German.[/nq]
Collins has it as "shtoom", and sources it as "from Yiddish, from German stumm . silent".

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)

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[nq:1]I just had cause to use this expression in a posting elsewhere, and, having done a little Googling to check ... With some (largely lost now) German from schooldays I subconsciously went for what would look right (to me) in German.[/nq]
1. In German, st- is pronounced "sht-" and sp- is pronounced "shp-". Hence"scht-" and "schp-" don't look right in German.
2. Since Yiddish =/= German, I prefer to use sh- for all Yiddish words thatbegin with the "sh" sound: shtick, shmuck, shlep, shtum/shtoom...

Adrian

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[nq:2]I just had cause to use this expression in a ... went for what would look right (to me) in German.[/nq]
[nq:1]1. In German, st- is pronounced "sht-" and sp- is pronounced "shp-". Hence "scht-" and "schp-" don't look right in German.[/nq]
I dare say, Adrian. That's why I gave myself a get out bracket.
[nq:1]2. Since Yiddish =/= German, I prefer to use sh- for all Yiddish words that begin with the "sh" sound: shtick, shmuck, shlep, shtum/shtoom...[/nq]
Understood. I didn't mean to imply that Yiddish =ed German, merely that the word sounded sort of German to my very rusty ear. Perhaps I should have said "had gone" rather than "went", and "had been" instead of "was".
Philip Eden

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I just had cause to use this expression in a posting elsewhere, and, having done a little Googling to check ... With some (largely lost now) German from schooldays I subconsciously went for what would look right (to me) in German.[/nq]
Someone will be along shortly to tell you how to spell it in TIVO Yiddish.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"Philip Eden" wrote in message[/nq]
[nq:2]Reading a few references suggested that it's of Yiddish origin, ... went for what would look right (to me) in German.[/nq]
[nq:1]Someone will be along shortly to tell you how to spell it in TIVO Yiddish.[/nq]
That would be " ".
(Actually, it couldn't be, because the mute signal goes to the receiver or TV, not the TiVo. But I can't think of what else they would use.)

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 > is chaungePalo Alto, CA 94304 >Withinne a thousand yer, and wordes

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I just had cause to use this expression in a ... went for what would look right (to me) in German.[/nq]
[nq:1]1. In German, st- is pronounced "sht-" and sp- is pronounced "shp-". Hence "scht-" and "schp-" don't look right in German.[/nq]
Yes, standard German doesn't have the sound 'st' or 'sp' in syllable initial position.
[nq:1]2. Since Yiddish =/= German, I prefer to use sh- for all Yiddish words that begin with the "sh" sound: shtick, shmuck, shlep, shtum/shtoom...[/nq]
I don't think that Yiddish has/had a standard orthography. I think I agree that when borrowing these words from Yiddish, though not from German, I would use the English spelling for the 'sh' sound.

"...each one of whom as he struck his enemy wounded horribly some other innocent heart far away."

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[nq:2]2. Since Yiddish =/= German, I prefer to use sh- for all Yiddish words that begin with the "sh" sound: shtick, shmuck, shlep, shtum/shtoom...[/nq]
[nq:1]I don't think that Yiddish has/had a standard orthography.[/nq]
Actually, it does. It was developed in the 1930s by YIVO(1). Their standard transliteration chart can be found at
http://www.yivoinstitute.org/yiddish/alefbeys fr.htm

That uses "sh" for the /S/ written "shin".
(1) Does anybody know what "YIVO" stands for? The organization says that "the new institute soon became known by its acronym, 'YIVO'", but the actual name was "Yidisher Visnshaftlekher Institut" (Yiddish Scientific Institute), which wouldn't seem to form "YIVO".

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >Never ascribe to malice that which
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >can adequately be explained byPalo Alto, CA 94304 >stupidity.
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I don't think that Yiddish has/had a standard orthography.[/nq]
[nq:1]Actually, it does. It was developed in the 1930s by YIVO(1). Their standard transliteration chart can be found at http://www.yivoinstitute.org/yiddish/alefbeys ... its acronym, 'YIVO'", but the actual name was "Yidisher Visnshaftlekher Institut" (Yiddish Scientific Institute), which wouldn't seem to form "YIVO".[/nq]
One site:
http://www.jewish-sci-tech-books.co.uk/links.htm
says:
YIVO (occasionally IVA) is a transliteration (Yiddish alphabet to Latin alphabet) of yud vov aleph ("yidisher visnshaftlekher institut").

But I don't get what aleph is doing in there, I thought it was the transliteration of "a." I admit I don't know Hebrew at all.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2](1) Does anybody know what "YIVO" stands for? The organization ... Institut" (Yiddish Scientific Institute), which wouldn't seem to form "YIVO".[/nq]
[nq:1]YIVO (occasionally IVA) is a transliteration (Yiddish alphabet to Latin alphabet) of yud vov aleph ("yidisher visnshaftlekher institut").[/nq]
Duh! I was thinking of the Latin letters, not the Hebrew ones.
[nq:1]But I don't get what aleph is doing in there, I thought it was the transliteration of "a." I admit I don't know Hebrew at all.[/nq]
No, that actually makes sense. Aleph (or, in Yiddish, "alef") has three roles in Yiddish, distinguished by which (if any) vowel marks are attached. With "pasekh" (a bar below), it's /a/ and transliterated "a". With "komets" (like a "T" below), it's /O/ and transliterated "o". Without anything, it's a "shtumer (silent) alef" and only, I believe, occurs at the beginning of words that begin in /I/, /i/, or /u/, because otherwise the word would be seen (according to Hebrew rules) to begin with /j/ (for the yud that signals /I/ or /i/) or /v/ (for the vov that signals /u/). So "Institut" is "alef yud nun samekh tes yud tes vov tes".
If "yud vov alef" were read as a word, that alef couldn't be silent, so it would have to be read as /a/ or /O/, with the /O/ possibly being the predominant reflex in Lithuania, where the Institute was founded.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >Oh, forget it: I can't write about
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >this anymore until I find a muchPalo Alto, CA 94304 >more sarcastic typeface.

(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Keeping schtum

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