I've never known him to hate anything as much as Syntax?

Question

While I was reading Andrew Radford's Transformational Grammar of 1988, I notice that on page 289 of this book, he seems to assume that (7)(b) is grammatical.
(7)(b) I've never known him hate anything as much as Syntax

But, shouldn't we say
I've never known him to hate anything as much as Syntax

instead?
Also on page 299, he seems to assume that (37)(c) below is grammatical:
(37)(c) John wondered would he get a degree.
But shouldn't we say the following instead?
John wondered if he would get a degree.
Could native speakers of English please comment? Thanks.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]While I was reading Andrew Radford's Transformational Grammar of 1988, I notice that on page 289 of this book, he ... as much as Syntax But, shouldn't we say I've never known him to hate anything as much as Syntax instead?[/nq]
The "to" is indeed optional, so that's not a problem. I don't like the sentence though, either way.
[nq:1]Also on page 299, he seems to assume that (37)(c) below is grammatical: (37)(c) John wondered would he get a degree. But shouldn't we say the following instead? John wondered if he would get a degree.[/nq]
I don't like his sentence either. Yours is okay, but I'd prefer "whether".

Adrian

Usenet · Answer

Chad, or Antony Liu, asks about:
[nq:1](7)(b) I've never known him hate anything as much as Syntax... I've never known him to hate anything as much as Syntax[/nq]
There may be people who would consider "to" required, but for me this is correct either way.
[nq:1](37)(c) John wondered would he get a degree.. John wondered if he would get a degree.[/nq]
The first one looks wrong to me too. The second is correct. Another way to recast it would be as a quotation of John's thoughts. This can be somewhat closer to the way the original reads, but the pronoun, the tense, and the punctuation all have to change:
John wondered, "will I get a degree?"
Also, this version may suggest to some readers that John was wondering aloud rather than just thinking. As we saw in another recent thread, some writers would use:
John wondered, will I get a degree?
to imply that it's a quotation of thoughts, but there are also people who reject that punctuation as incorrect.

Mark Brader > "...given time, a generally accepted solution to Toronto > this problem will evolve, as it has in the past for (Email Removed) > (others), only to be replaced by the next issue, which
[nq:1]no-one has even dreamt of yet." Andrew Lawrence[/nq]
My text in this article is in the public domain.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]While I was reading Andrew Radford's Transformational Grammar of 1988, I notice that on page 289 of this book, he ... as much as Syntax But, shouldn't we say I've never known him to hate anything as much as Syntax instead?[/nq]
It's fairly idiomatic as written.
[nq:1]Also on page 299, he seems to assume that (37)(c) below is grammatical: (37)(c) John wondered would he get a degree. But shouldn't we say the following instead? John wondered if he would get a degree.[/nq]
Yes. Or, even better: "John wondered whether...".
It's presumably a miserable attempt to come up with a reported version of this:
John wondered, "Will I get a degree?"
But, as written with the subject and auxiliary inverted (as in direct speech) but with the third-person rather than first-person pronoun (as in reported speech) and the tense knocked back from "will" to "would" (also as in reported speech) it's an Utter Mess that the writer shouldn't have written and his editor shouldn't have let through.
Well spotted.

Ross Howard

Usenet · Answer

In our last episode,
(Email Removed), the lovely and talented chad
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
[nq:1]While I was reading Andrew Radford's Transformational Grammar of 1988, I notice that on page 289 of this book, he ... as much as Syntax But, shouldn't we say I've never known him to hate anything as much as Syntax instead?[/nq]
I've never known him to hate anything so much as Syntax.

Lars Eighner ~~finger for geek code~~ (Email Removed) http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "The very essence of the creative is its novelty, and hence we have no standard by which to judge it." Carl R. Rogers, On Becoming a Person

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]While I was reading Andrew Radford's Transformational Grammar of 1988, I notice that on page 289 of this book, he ... as much as Syntax But, shouldn't we say I've never known him to hate anything as much as Syntax instead?[/nq]
The version with "to" is correct but sounds slightly artificial: example (7)(b) is more natural and is the better form to follow.
[nq:1]Also on page 299, he seems to assume that (37)(c) below is grammatical: (37)(c) John wondered would he get a degree. But shouldn't we say the following instead? John wondered if he would get a degree.[/nq]
Here your version is better, though I (British English) would use "whether" rather than "if". However, the book's version is often heard, and probably Radford takes the view that what is said naturally by native speakers is a pattern worth considering syntactically - as indeed it is..

For me, it's a badly-formed sentence, showing ignorance of how a indirect question is properly expressed. The author quoted gets the sequence of tenses right, and correctly converts the "I" that John would actually have thought into "he", but fails to reverse the verb-subject order.

Does Radford go on to analyse the syntax? You say he seems to assume that (37)(c) is grammatical, but perhaps his analysis comments on the example's informality and cites a more formal or "correct" phrasing.

Alan Jones

I've never known him to hate anything as much as Syntax?

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