It didn't have to mean that.

Question

Rachel loved to read and thought she would become a writer. Then she decided to be a scientist, and at first believed that meant giving up writing. But of course it didn't have to mean that at all. She wrote of science and the natural world, and did it so well that all who read her books gained a new awareness of their environment.

About 'it didn't have to mean that', is it possible to say 'that didn't have to mean it' instead, to mean the same thing? If not, then why not?

Goldmund · Accepted Answer

Dear Taka,

It is an interesting conundrum.

We may rephrase «It didn't have to mean that» as «Being a scientist didn't have to mean giving up writing». We may also say «That didn't have to mean giving up writing». But I do not believe we may say «That didn't have to mean it».

I do not know why. Perhaps a moderator will know.

Kind regards,

Goldmund

Davkett · Answer

Taka,

This may prove to be another one of those long threads for which your posts are celebrated. Let me be the first to stick my foot in my mouth.

'That didn't have to mean that' would be a second-rate possibility, with the obvious problem of the same word referring to two different antecedents: 1) Rachel's decision 'to be a scientist', and 2) 'giving up writing'.

'That didn't have to mean it' is clearly odd to my ears, though the explanation for why does not come easily for me, having no other credentials than those of a 'native speaker'.

If one were speaking this phrase, the least one would have to do is accent the pronunciation of the word 'it'. Still, 'that' -as in 'that/this'- always seems to point to the farther (latter) position. So, in the context of the target sentence, the latter position is the second clause. 'It' is neutral in this pointing aspect.

MrPedantic · Answer

'that didn't have to mean it'

I wonder whether there's some interference here with ["to mean it" = "to be sincere"].

I'm still a little perplexed by the underlying question, though. Take this example:

1. "My pc keeps hanging. So I'm going to use Norton Utilities to clean the registry."

Possible responses:

A – "That won't fix it."

= "Using Norton Utilities to clean the registry won't stop your pc hanging".

Alternatively, "that" in italics might signify contempt for Norton.

B – "It won't fix that."

= "Norton Utilities (may fix other things, but it) won't stop your pc hanging".

Alternatively, "that" in italics might signify trepidation at the size or nature of the problem.

C – "It won't fix it."

= "Norton Utilities won't stop your pc hanging".

D – "That won't fix that."

= "Using Norton Utilities to clean the registry (may fix other things, but it) won't stop your pc hanging".

Italics as in A and B.

Not that I'm any the wiser.

MrP

Clive · Answer

Rachel loved to read and thought she would become a writer. Then she decided to be a scientist, and at first believed that meant giving up writing. But of course it didn't have to mean that at all. She wrote of science and the natural world, and did it so well that all who read her books gained a new awareness of their environment.

About 'it didn't have to mean that', is it possible to say 'that didn't have to mean it' instead, to mean the same thing? If not, then why not?

is it possible to say 'that didn't have to mean it' instead, to mean the same thing? If not, then why not? Well, when I look at this change in context, I'm inclined simply to answer, yes, it's possible grammatically, although stylistically I'm a bit uncomfortable in this context with 'it', referring to 'giving up writing'.

Best wishes, Clive

CalifJim · Answer

About 'it didn't have to mean that', is it possible to say 'that didn't have to mean it' instead, to mean the same thing? If not, then why not?

No. It's not possible to change it. In the equative structure the thing identified is pronomialized by "it", the identifier by "that". There are many 'near-equative' structures in which we have a thing explained and a thing which explains, or a thing defined and a thing which defines, or some similar relationship. They all pronomialize in the same way.

"Being a scientist means giving up writing."
What is being defined: "being a scientist"
What defines it: "giving up writing"
So: "It means that" or, in the example cited, "It didn't mean that at all".
If you change to "That's not what it meant at all", the "it" and the "that" still refer to the same components.

Likewise: Paul thought that 'jejune' meant 'in the summer', but that's not what it meant at all / it didn't mean that at all.

The inverted form:

"It was once thought that the laws of gravity would explain the motion of electrons about the nucleus, but [that didn't explain it / that wasn't it]."

What is being explained: "the motion of electrons about the nucleus"
What explains it: "the laws of gravity"
So: "That explains it"

Here's another variant:

What was the answer?
The answer was 25. (Identifier final.)
Or: 25 was the answer. (Identifier initial).

So:
A: 25 was the answer!
B: No, that wasn't it. / That wasn't the answer. / It wasn't 25.

And:
The rupture in the levee caused the flood. ('identifier' initial, i.e., explanation first -- 'identified' or what is to be explained final.)
Yes, that caused it. / That's what caused it.

CJ
These remarks are all hypothetical. I hope we'll see some posts which support or disprove the hypothesis.

Diamondrg · Answer

DavkettLet me be the first to stick my foot in my mouth.

what does that mean?

Davkett · Answer

From MSN Encarta Thesaurus:

Synonyms: blunder, put your foot in it, be indiscreet, be tactless, speak out of turn, goof, slip up, err, ****.

From The Phrase Finder:

PUT YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH - "Irish Parliamentarian Sir Boyle Roche was sort of the 18th century equivalent to (former U.S. Vice President) Dan Quayle. Roche once said, 'Half the lies our opponents tell about me are not true!' Someone with a much firmer grasp of the English language remarked of Roche, 'Every time he opens his mouth, he puts his foot in it,' and a phrase was born."

Diamondrg · Answer

oK, davkett. thanks.

It didn't have to mean that.

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