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TheProcess Posted 19 years ago
Grammar

Isaiah 53

1b01u00Isaiah 53 (KJV)02u02b02br
02br
00[01b00102b00] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?02br
00[01b00202b00] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.02br
00[01b00302b00] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.02br
00[01b00402b00] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.02br
00[01b00502b00] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.02br
00[01b00602b00] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.02br
00[01b00702b00] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.02br
00[01b00802b00] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.02br
00[01b00902b00] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.02br
00[01b001002b00] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.02br
00[01b001102b00] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.02br
00[01b001202b00] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.02br
02br
00There is something of a dispute concerning what this chapter is talking about. Some think that it is talking about an individual, and some think that it is talking about the nation of Israel. I have a couple of questions. Don't worry about the Hebrew, as obviously this isn't a forum for discussing the Hebrew language.02br
02br
00Could a nation be referred to using singular personal pronouns? Could a nation be referred to as a "man of sorrows"? Do these things exclude the possibilty that it is talking about a nation? Or make it unlikely?02br
02br
00Also, if you get the impression that this is certainly talking about an individual then feel free to say so.0-
  

Top answer

02br 02br 00You say 01font 00Don't worry about the Hebrew . 02font 02br 02br 00However, my first reaction is to think that the crux of the matter is the intention of the original Hebrew writer. So, what is to be gained by debating the nuances of English pronouns?

— Clive

  • 02br 02br 00You say 01font 00Don't worry about the Hebrew .
  • 02font 02br 02br 00However, my first reaction is to think that the crux of the matter is the intention of the original Hebrew writer.
  • So, what is to be gained by debating the nuances of English pronouns?
  • Surely the nuances of Hebrew pronouns are more to the point?
  • 05002br 02br 00Best wishes, Clive010id1
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13 Answers
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0Hi,02br
02br
00Welcome to the Forum.02br
02br
00You say 01font00Don't worry about the Hebrew . . .02font02br
02br
00However, my first reaction is to think that the crux of the matter is the intention of the original Hebrew writer. So, what is to be gained by debating the nuances of English prono
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0 My personal view is that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus Christ, that it prophesies the coming of the Messiah. 0-
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0 01blockquote
01cite10Annvan12cite10My personal view is that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus Christ, that it prophesies the coming of the Messiah.12blockquote
10 01b01font00The reference is clearly to "the chosen one".02font02b00 0-
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0Yes; the phrases "despised and rejected of men" and "a man of sorrows" are generally associated with Jesus Christ, in European literature, etc.02br
02br
00(Welcome to English Forums, TP, by the way!)02br
02br
00MrP0-
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0 01blockquote
01cite10Clive12cite10Hi,12br
12br
10Welcome to the Forum.12br
12br
10You say 11font10Don't worry about the Hebrew . . .12font12br
12br
10However, my first reaction is to think that the crux of the matter is the intention of the original H
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0 01blockquote
01cite10MrPedantic12cite12br
10Yes; the phrases "despised and rejected of men" and "a man of sorrows" are generally associated with Jesus Christ, in European literature, etc.12br
12br
10(Welcome to English Forums, TP, by the way!)12br
12br
10MrP12br
12br
12blockquote
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0 The problem I have with this kind of discussion is that Isaiah was a prophet, speaking to a people in turmoil. Like any prophet, the language is obscure, and therefore can be interpreted in more than one way according to the mindset of the interpreter. We also are working at a distance through the translator. Old Testament Hebrew has its own problems for translators in that some of the word
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0Hi,02br
02br
00Quite so. In my opinion. it's all very well to say that we can consider this by looking at a translation, but I wonder if a translation that is in Japanese or Urdu would give the same impression as a translation that is in English?02br
02br
00I'm reminded of the remark that was supposedly made by an American politician who was supporting a
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0 01blockquote
01cite10TheProcess12cite10Yes, the phrases may well be associated with Jesus, but that isn't really the issue here. Obviously Christians apply the text to Jesus. But then, there is no doubt that New Testament authors were willing to take parts of the Hebrew Bible out of context (which were speaking of Israel) and apply them to Jesus. For
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01cite10MrPedantic12cite10[If "he" is "wounded for our transgressions", and "he" represents a nation, it means the writer wants to speak of "the nation" in a sense that does not include those people who make 11i10up12i10 that nation. That seems a strange dissociation to me.12blockquote
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