Is this a complete sentence?

Question

Both poems share irony.

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

Yes, it's a complete sentence. It's a strange sentence, but a complete one.

both and share don't go together.

Both poems contain irony.
The poems share irony.

CJ

Colombo · Answer

I agree that it's a complete sentence, but what makes it strange? Why don't both and share go together? That's the way I would have written the second of your examples when the poems in question are two (which I suppose is the case in the context the sentence was taken from).

CalifJim · Answer

ColomboWhy don't both and share go together?

Because sharing can only happen between two or more people or things, and it implies a reciprocal relationship. Adding both says that each of the two things separately has a reciprocal relationship between two or more people or things, which is impossible. I'll explain this below, step by step. You'll have to be patient because there are several points to explain.
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First, let's note that a reciprocal relationship cannot exist for a singular entity. That is, you can't say things like *Peter writes to each other often or *Mary sees each other every week.

Second, let's be clear about the meaning of the word both.
Both Peter and Mary have a headache. This means Peter has a headache, and Mary has a headache.

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Now let's combine the facts about reciprocal relationships (each other) and about both with a simple, obvious example.

Karen and Fred love each other. This shows that Karen loves Fred, and Fred loves Karen.

It would be strange to rewrite this as: Both Karen and Fred love each other.

That's saying that Karen loves each other (which is impossible for one person to do), and Fred loves each other (equally impossible).

So both doesn't go with the reciprocal concept each other. It's illogical.

______________________

Now to the example with the verb share.

The poems share this characteristic. This shows that the poems have a characteristic in common with each other. Note how share implies each other, a reciprocal concept.

It would be strange to rewrite this as: Both poems share this characteristic.

This says that one of the poems has a characteristic in common with each other (impossible for one thing), and the other poem has a characteristic in common with each other (also impossible).

Again, both and (implied) each other occur together, and the result is strangely impossible.

CJ

Colombo · Answer

Wow! I've loved your explanation! I like this kind of things!

CalifJimAdding both says that each of the two things separately has a reciprocal relationship between two or more people or things, which is impossible.

I think that my problem was here. As I understood it, both was simply a synonym for the two, but I had never stopped to think that each of the two parts must fulfil a requirement at the same time and separately. If I've understood it well, saying Both poems share irony would be the same as saying Poem 1 shares irony and poem 2 shares irony, which makes no sense. Is that it?

As my namesake at LAPD would say, just one more thing: would this issue, no matter how accurate, look to the average English speaker as if we were splitting hairs? I mean, does the original sentence sound awful to everyone, or only to careful speakers? It's just so as to determine whether the meaning of the word both does not exactly match that of its Spanish translation (now I'm not sure anymore whether I'm using it correctly in Spanish!)

CalifJim · Answer

ColomboIf I've understood it well, saying Both poems share irony would be the same as saying Poem 1 shares irony and poem 2 shares irony, which makes no sense. Is that it?

Yes. You have understood it just fine.

Colombodoes the original sentence sound awful to everyone, or only to careful speakers?

I can't speak for everyone, so I'll have to guess that the illogic would go unnoticed by many speakers.

Colombonow I'm not sure anymore whether I'm using it correctly in Spanish!

Seriously? So Ambos se escribieron sounds fine to you? Just as good as Juan y Anita se escribieron?

CJ

Khoff · Answer

Another amazingly clear explanation form CJ!

This thread reminds me of the sign in the Denver Airport shuttle busses -- "Luggage Looks Alike." I think this has the same problem -- it implies that each individual piece of luggage "looks alike."

Colombo · Answer

CalifJim
Colombonow I'm not sure anymore whether I'm using it correctly in Spanish!

Seriously? So Ambos se escribieron sounds fine to you? Just as good as Juan y Anita se escribieron?

Yes, that sentence sounds fine to me, and so does Ambos poemas comparten la ironía. What's more, I sent an e-mail to what can be translated as the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language (RAE), an official institution that sees to it that Spanish is used properly, telling them of this subtleties about the word ambos (and telling them, too, that the original discussion had arised when talking about the term in English, so as to put them in the picture), and they've confirmed that I can use it like that without any problem. Anyway, your reasoning sounds very logical, so I don't really know whether, in spite of appearing in the dictionaries without any kind of comment, the concepts behind both and ambos are not really the same, or even those people at the RAE haven't stopped to think about it. I consider myself a careful speaker of Spanish (and as careful as I can be a speaker of English), and I had never thought (or heard) of anything like this before.

I've been thinking about your examples in English, and the only one (apart, of course, from those marked with *) that I might have considered incorrect is Both Karen and Fred love each other, although not so much because of inconsistency, but because of a kind of redundancy (to me, the closest right sentence would have been Both, Karen and Fred, love each other, with the names in apposition). The translation into Spanish of the first example would have been Tanto Karen como Fred se quieren (it doesn't include the word ambos, since in this case the two subjetcs are mentioned, not replaced -the second example would have been Ambos, Karen y Fred, se quieren). While I might have considered it slightly inelegant (I'm not sure any more about what I would have thought last week!), I think it wouldn't be that inusual, although I think it might have conveyed the additional idea that the writer wishes to make it clear that it's a requited love on both sides.

Oops... I think I'll keep on speaking Spanish as I used to do, and be careful when speaking English, although I suspect I won't be able to use again the word amboswithout thinking of all this!

Colombo · Answer

khoffThis thread reminds me of the sign in the Denver Airport shuttle busses -- "Luggage Looks Alike." I think this has the same problem -- it implies that each individual piece of luggage "looks alike."

Yes, I think it's another instance of the same problem, isn't it? In this case, for some reason, I think I would have realized the inconsistency from the beginning.

(It said, I hope CJ does not come here and say it's perfectly correct!)

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