is it a noun clause or a noun phrase?

Question

Please, help me with this one.Are the underlined words a noun phrase or a noun clause? Loving her was my favorite pastime.THANKS.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

It's a noun phrase; loving is a noun.

J Lewis · Answer

It is indeed a noun phrase, but I think Mister Micawber's explanation could be confusing. A noun clause and a noun phrase both have the function of a noun in the rest of the sentence. In "I don't know where he went", where he went is a noun clause, because it is the object of I don't know and contains a subject and finite verb. Loving her is a noun phrase because it does not contain a finite verb.

Mister Micawber · Answer

If it contains either a finite or nonfinite verb, then it is a clause and not a phrase; here I was considering loving a gerund.

Loving her, I forgot my other pastimes. -- this is obviously a clause (a nonfinite adverbial one)
Loving was my favorite pastime. -- this is obviously a gerund (a participal serving a noun function)
Loving her was my favorite pastime. -- according to the way I see it, this is also a noun phrase because loving is a gerund.

From CGEL (Quirk, et al):

A. Painting a child is difficult.
B. Painting a child that morning, I quite forgot the time.

Quirk et al state that 'the traditional view held painting to be a gerund [hence a noun phrase-- MM] where the item was functioning nominally (A), but it was considered a participle [hence a nonfinite clause -- MM] if the same structure functioned adverbially (B). They end up dumping the distinction and just calling them both '-ing forms', and so I suppose my grammar is dated now.

J Lewis · Answer

Hi, MM. I didn't consult any books over this and was relying on memory from decades ago! I considered the distinction between a phrase and a clause to be that a clause contains a finite verb, but I see that you use the concept "non-finite clause". In my view, in "Painting a child is difficult", "painting a child" is a noun phrase (or non-finite noun clause in your view), not because it contains a gerund (verb functioning as a noun), but because the entire phrase acts as a noun in the rest of the sentence (subject of "is"). Certainly, though, it would be difficult for a gerund phrase/non-finite clause (as it is when analysed internally) to have another function.
But just to make my viewpoint clear, consider the sentence, "Why he left is a mystery", "why he left" is a noun clause; it doesn't contain anything acting as a noun but, as a whole, it is the subject of "is a mystery".
Maybe this is the beginning of a debate. It's a pity that text-books lump everything together as "-ing forms", an entirely useless term as you can see for yourself that they end with -ing!

Mister Micawber · Answer

No debate from this end, JL-- I was just clarifying your clarification of my clarification... I think. At least, I was restricting myself to -ing phrases vs -ing clauses. I was not thinking about the aspect of clause function. I hope I didn't mislead all into thinking the gerund was the key to the function-- it just indicates phrase rather than clause in the system with which I am familiar. I agree wholeheartedly that Why he left is also a nominal clause-- a fine, finite one.

Lumping does destroy the challenge, doesn't it? On the other hand, it probably saves a lot of academic rancour. I'll settle for any nomenclature, just so long as I know what meaning people are agreeing on.

J Lewis · Answer

Ok, clear now

Anonymous · Answer

All people in Rabaul were evacuated as Vulcan reached Phrase 4.

Clive · Answer

Hi,

All people in Rabaul were evacuated main clause

as Vulcan reached Phrase 4. adverbial clause. I think you mean 'phase 4'.

Clive

is it a noun clause or a noun phrase?

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