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Usenet Posted 21 years ago
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Irish Gaelic personal names outside Ireland - what's up with that?

What with the close connections over centuries between England and Ireland, most Irish Christian names and surnames have Anglicised forms. Bridget and Dierdre and so forth.
Almost no Englishmen speak Irish Gaelic. Nor, I believe, do many citizens of the Republic, either. But at least they can decipher the language sufficient to make out how names should be pronounced.

For instance, what is an Englishman (or American or other non-speaker of Irish) to make of
'Daithí Ó hAnluain'
http://www.ojr.org/ojr/stories/050310ohanluain/
if not to ask whether Joe Smith is available? (It's not even clear whether the individual named is male or female!)
It comes across (YMMV, natch) as a capsule form of the language fascism that used, at least, to be prominent in the country in pre-Celtic Tiger days (for instance, though there have been no monolingual Gaelic speakers for decades, for the most part, one could not get a teaching job in the Republic without a qualification in the language). Or a minor act of Semtex-less Fenianism.

The pronunciation is virtually unguessable for the uninitiated. Compare the relative ease of busking Hungarian surnames (I chose Hungarian as a non-Indo-European language):
http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g023.htm
with the absolute necessity of a crib for the Irish:

http://www.daire.org/names/irishsurs.html
It's fascinating, perhaps, from a linguistics angle: a name like the one quoted above - unpronounceable; in context, appearing to be used deliberately to exclude the uninitiated - does not, in significant ways, function in the way that names normally do.
(Quick question: at which place in the alphabetical order would you look it up in the telephone directory? The lower-case 'h' is, I surmise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish initial mutations

a 'prothetic onset 'h'' - do those count in placing the name alphabetically?)
To a non-Gaelic speaker, the name's 'meta' (to use the word not in any technical sense) significance - as an act of cultural celebration or bird-flipping or whatever - will be at least as great as its (necessarily limited) significance as a name.
  

Top answer

[nq:1]What with the close connections over centuries between England and Ireland, most Irish Christian names and surnames have Anglicised forms. the Republic, either. [/nq] I can fairly confidently state that few English would have much of an idea how to pronounce Irish, beyond odd words like "Dáil"; and even then they'd do better reading what had been written, rather than trying to spell what had been said.

  • [nq:1]What with the close connections over centuries between England and Ireland, most Irish Christian names and surnames have Anglicised forms.
  • the Republic, either.
  • [/nq] I can fairly confidently state that few English would have much of an idea how to pronounce Irish, beyond odd words like "Dáil"; and even then they'd do better reading what had been written, rather than trying to spell what had been said.
  • (ramblings snipped) [nq:1]The pronunciation is virtually unguessable for the uninitiated.
  • htm [/nq] That page tells you nothing about Hungarian pronunciation.
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13 Answers
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[nq:1]What with the close connections over centuries between England and Ireland, most Irish Christian names and surnames have Anglicised forms. ... the Republic, either. But at least they can decipher the language sufficient to make out how names should be pronounced.[/nq]
I can fairly confidently state that few English would have much of an idea how to pronounce Irish, beyond odd words like
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[nq:1]For instance, what is an Englishman (or American or other non-speaker of Irish) to make of 'Daithí Ó hAnluain'[/nq]
Di O'Hanlon?
Ida Goode-Johnson
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Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:15:58 +0100: Andrew Gwilliam
: in sci.lang:
[nq:1]That page tells you nothing about Hungarian pronunciation. Care to tell me how you think "a", "cs", "cz", "j", "s", or "sz" should be pronounced?[/nq]
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/hungaria.htm
[nq:1] I doubt tha
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[nq:2]That page tells you nothing about Hungarian pronunciation. Care to tell me how you think "a", "cs", "cz", "j", "s", or "sz" should be pronounced?[/nq]
[nq:1]http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/hungaria.htm[/nq]
I'm sure you realised why I asked the question of the OP. However, that's a us
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Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:35:22 +0100: Andrew Gwilliam
: in sci.lang:
[nq:1]I'm sure you realised why I asked the question of the OP.[/nq]
Yes, rhetorical question. But I thought others might benefit.
[nq:1]However, that's a useful-looking page; thank-you. I'm not au fait with SAMPA, could you tell me what (F) and (h\) would be in Kirshenbaum IPA (or the real thing)? They didn't seem to
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Welsh w and y with tô-bach (circumflex accent) confuse most character sets. Are these in Unicode? Mi parolas Esperanton kiel naciano - and I absolutely hate those ^ accents on the consonants.

Paul Townsend
Pair them off into threes
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
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[nq:1]Welsh w and y with tô-bach (circumflex accent) confuse most character sets. Are these in Unicode?[/nq]
Por supuesto! Unicode Latin Extended-A, glyph nos. 0175 and 0177 (0174 and
0176 respectively for the capitals).(http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0100.pdf)
If you're using Windows XP, you'
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[nq:1]For instance, what is an Englishman (or American or other non-speaker of Irish) to make of 'Daithí Ó hAnluain' http://www.ojr.org/ojr/stories/050310ohanluain/ if not to ask whether Joe Smith is available? (It's not even clear whether the individual named is male or female!)[/nq]
The English langu
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[nq:1]What with the close connections over centuries between England and Ireland, most Irish Christian names and surnames have Anglicised forms. ... celebration or bird-flipping or whatever - will be at least as great as its (necessarily limited) significance as a name.[/nq]
I've lived among both Welsh-language liberals and Welsh-language fascists for a quarter of a century, and have come to u
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Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:58:27 +0100: Prai Jei
[nq:1]Welsh w and y with tô-bach (circumflex accent) confuse most character sets. Are these in Unicode?[/nq]
Of course. They are in codes 0174, 0175, 0176 and 0177 in http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0100.pdf

Ruud Harmsen -

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