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Usenet Posted 22 years ago
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Interpretation of a Sentence
The following sentence is from a monograph on Chinese writing:
'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to which phonetic elements were added, and were to continue to label those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to which semantic symbols were added, then the distinction between phonograms and the zhuanzhu would be more rational.'
I am having a little trouble interpreting its meaning, and I was wondering if I could get some insights into the matter.
In particular, the syntactical analysis of the second independent clause is not clear to me, i.e.,
'were to continue to label those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to which semantic symbols were added'.
There seems to be two possible analyses here, depending on whether 'those' is taken to be a demonstrative pronoun or a demonstrative adjective:
1) 'label' is complex-transition (to use Huddleston's terminology), with'those which were derived ...' as the direct object, and 'phonograms' as the complement; or
2) 'label' is monotransitive, with 'those phonograms which were derived...' as the direct object.
Syntactically, the second option seems more likely from a stand-alone viewpoint, yet, given an almost parallel construction in the first independent clause, it would seem that the first option should be favoured.
However, neither seems entirely satisfactory to me. Is there perhaps another possible analysis which I have missed? I suppose the question is really: Are the zhuanzhu phonograms or not?
Unfortunately, I am rather wont to mistake complex sentences upon first reading, but I can usually figure out the correct construction in the end. This sentence has thus far eluded me, so I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light. FWIW, I think this is a poorly written sentence.
Sebastian.
'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to which phonetic elements were added, and were to continue to label those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to which semantic symbols were added, then the distinction between phonograms and the zhuanzhu would be more rational.'
I am having a little trouble interpreting its meaning, and I was wondering if I could get some insights into the matter.
In particular, the syntactical analysis of the second independent clause is not clear to me, i.e.,
'were to continue to label those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to which semantic symbols were added'.
There seems to be two possible analyses here, depending on whether 'those' is taken to be a demonstrative pronoun or a demonstrative adjective:
1) 'label' is complex-transition (to use Huddleston's terminology), with'those which were derived ...' as the direct object, and 'phonograms' as the complement; or
2) 'label' is monotransitive, with 'those phonograms which were derived...' as the direct object.
Syntactically, the second option seems more likely from a stand-alone viewpoint, yet, given an almost parallel construction in the first independent clause, it would seem that the first option should be favoured.
However, neither seems entirely satisfactory to me. Is there perhaps another possible analysis which I have missed? I suppose the question is really: Are the zhuanzhu phonograms or not?
Unfortunately, I am rather wont to mistake complex sentences upon first reading, but I can usually figure out the correct construction in the end. This sentence has thus far eluded me, so I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light. FWIW, I think this is a poorly written sentence.
Sebastian.
Top answer
[nq:1]The following sentence is from a monograph on Chinese writing: 'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms ... I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light. [/nq] Perhaps if you would identify the author, we would know from their other writings exactly what they had in mind.
- [nq:1]The following sentence is from a monograph on Chinese writing: 'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms ...
- I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light.
- [/nq] Perhaps if you would identify the author, we would know from their other writings exactly what they had in mind.
- Peter T.
- Daniels (Email Removed)
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73 Answers
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[nq:1]The following sentence is from a monograph on Chinese writing: 'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms ... I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light. FWIW, I think this is a poorly written sentence.[/nq]
Perhaps if you would identify the author, we would know from their other writings exactly what they had in mind.
Peter T. Daniels (Email Removed)
Perhaps if you would identify the author, we would know from their other writings exactly what they had in mind.
Peter T. Daniels (Email Removed)
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"Sebastian Hew" (Email Removed) wrote on 26 Dec 2003:
[nq:1]I suppose the question is really: Are the zhuanzhu phonograms or not?[/nq]
See this page for one answer:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~clp/China/structure.htm
Here is a second:
[nq:1]I suppose the question is really: Are the zhuanzhu phonograms or not?[/nq]
See this page for one answer:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~clp/China/structure.htm
Here is a second:
00
[nq:2]I suppose the question is really: Are the zhuanzhu phonograms or not?[/nq]
[nq:1]See this page for one answer:[/nq]
Thanks for these links. However, the point was how the sentence I quoted was to be interpreted, i.e., does it say that zhuanzhu are phonograms or not. At least, that was what I intended.
I am familiar with the general literature on zhuanzhu my personal feeling is th
[nq:1]See this page for one answer:[/nq]
Thanks for these links. However, the point was how the sentence I quoted was to be interpreted, i.e., does it say that zhuanzhu are phonograms or not. At least, that was what I intended.
I am familiar with the general literature on zhuanzhu my personal feeling is th
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[nq:1]Perhaps if you would identify the author, we would know from their other writings exactly what they had in mind.[/nq]
What I have is a translation by Gilbert Mattos and Jerry Norman of the monograph entitled æ??å?å¸æ¦?è¦ (trans. as 'Chinese Writing') by è£?é?«å? (Ch'iu Hsi Kuei), originally written in Chinese.
The solution, of course, is to refer to the original text, and I have
What I have is a translation by Gilbert Mattos and Jerry Norman of the monograph entitled æ??å?å¸æ¦?è¦ (trans. as 'Chinese Writing') by è£?é?«å? (Ch'iu Hsi Kuei), originally written in Chinese.
The solution, of course, is to refer to the original text, and I have
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[nq:1]The following sentence is from a monograph on Chinese writing: 'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms ... was hoping someone might be able to shed some light. FWIW, I think this is a poorly written sentence. Sebastian.[/nq]
I think there is a word missing (or is zhuanzhu implied from earlier context?) in this position:
'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those pho
I think there is a word missing (or is zhuanzhu implied from earlier context?) in this position:
'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those pho
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[nq:1]The following sentence is from a monograph on Chinese writing: 'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms ... insights into the matter. In particular, the syntactical analysis of the second independent clause is not clear to me, i.e.,[/nq]
It's certainly very badly put together, but I'd be be a bit surprised if it weren't intended in the following sense:
If one were
It's certainly very badly put together, but I'd be be a bit surprised if it weren't intended in the following sense:
If one were
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I also subscribe to the missing words hypothesis,
but have different words to add, and am not at all close to the material.
I would add "as phonograms", resulting in:
'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to which phonetic elements were added, and were to continue to label as phonograms those phonogram
>
I also subscribe to the missing words hypothesis,
but have different words to add, and am not at all close to the material.
I would add "as phonograms", resulting in:
'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to which phonetic elements were added, and were to continue to label as phonograms those phonogram
00
Sebastian Hew asks about:
[nq:2]'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms ... distinction between phonograms and the zhuanzhu would be more rational.'[/nq]
I think this is just garbled. Either the writer is not a native English speaker and got it wrong, or at some point the sentence was reworded and the change was not carried through properly. Probably "those phonograms which
[nq:2]'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms ... distinction between phonograms and the zhuanzhu would be more rational.'[/nq]
I think this is just garbled. Either the writer is not a native English speaker and got it wrong, or at some point the sentence was reworded and the change was not carried through properly. Probably "those phonograms which
00
[nq:1]Sebastian Hew asks about: I think this is just garbled. Either the writer is not a native English speaker and ... meant to be "as phonograms those which" or else "as phonograms those phonograms which", giving the following result: Brian Scott:[/nq]
[nq:2]It's certainly very badly put together, but I'd be be ... distinction between phonograms and the zhuanzhu would be more rational.[/nq]
[nq:2]It's certainly very badly put together, but I'd be be ... distinction between phonograms and the zhuanzhu would be more rational.[/nq]
00
[nq:1]The following sentence is from a monograph on Chinese writing: 'If one were to label as zhuanzhu only those phonograms ... existing characters to which semantic symbols were added, then the distinction between phonograms and the zhuanzhu would be more rational.'[/nq]
My understanding of this passage is as follows.
'If those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to wh
My understanding of this passage is as follows.
'If those phonograms which were derived from existing characters to wh
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