Insisting that he needed...

Question

"Insisting that he needed to sleep, Harry managed to shake everyone off, and climbed up to the dormitory as fast as he could." =&gt; the indicative mood in the pastSo here the problem occurs for me. Normally, in such a sentence it would be used either the indicative (rather BrE) or the subjunctive (rather AmE), or rarely should + verb (BrE).What makes me confused is the thing that CJ told meonce for the particular sentence below one thing (I am most likely to have understood CJ wrong, anyway.)"I recommend that he revises thoroughly for his school-leaving exam." =&gt; CJ quotes: 'The one with 'revises' sounds wrong to me.' (its a normal indicative sentence)So my question is: Is it fine to use the indicative form in the sentence in the very beginning? And is it okay to use the PRESENT subjunctive as well? (Past subjunctive is incorrect, even for past, isn't it?)Thank you very much indeed for your opinions.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

Insisting that he needed to sleep,-- This is correct and is past indicative and past subjunctive. There is no difference in form.

CalifJim · Answer

MaroldInsisting that he needed to sleep, Harry ...

'insist' is not being used in the same sense here as it has when it's used with a subjunctive. Here it just means that Harry proclaimed quite strongly that he felt a need for sleep. He is not demanding of himself that he sleep!

The kind of 'insist' that goes with the subjunctive is the kind that means something like 'demand' (of someone else). To insist that someone do something, you have to have some action in mind that you want them to do. It's hard to imagine insisting that someone have certain feelings (like feeling a need for sleep).

Harry is evaluating his own need for sleep. He is not insisting that someone else sleep. Anyway, you can't insist that anyone else need anything. That's asking them to have a certain feeling. Either they need it or they don't. You can't control that.

Note the difference:

He insisted that he was too tired to go on. (You don't command yourself to be tired!) (proclaimed strongly)
He insisted that they be ready to go at 8. (You can command someone to be ready.) (demanded)

It may be helpful for you to recognize the connection of this usage of the subjunctive with the usage of the imperative. You can tell someone, "Be ready to go at 8", but not realistically, "Be too tired to go on".

CJ

Marold · Answer

Just after 2 paragraphs, it has dawned on me what you mean! It makes perfect sense now.

Finally I have even understood why you claimed in the recent post: CJ says: 'The one with 'revises' sounds wrong to me.'

After your explanation, it is evident why it seems wrong and what verb form is corresponding to the following sentence about Harry.

What a teacher you are! Thank you again very much.(four complex grammar structures grasped only due to you, hihi

).

Marold · Answer

Thank Mister Micawber, I had a little confusion as to what past subjunctive stands for. Now I see it is the same, in this case, as past indicative.<img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

CalifJim · Answer

Note that the present subjunctive, and not the past subjunctive, is used after verbs like 'insist', 'demand', and 'suggest' (in their "commanding" meanings) -- even when the main verb is in the past.

Henry demands that Jerry be allowed to come with us.
Henry demanded that Jerry be allowed to come with us.

Mary recommends that Sam call us as soon as possible.
Mary recommended that Sam call us as soon as possible.

CJ

Marold · Answer

Yes, I know the fact, but thanks anyways.

I wonder when the past subjunctive is ever used. I only know the uses of the present subjunctive.

CalifJim · Answer

Maroldwhen the past subjunctive is ever used

After 'if' and 'wish'. These are the two uses that immediately come to mind.

If I were rich, I'd buy a new house. / If they came early, we would have more time to chat.
I wish she were rich. / I wish she had enough money to buy me a new house. (Almost exclusively with stative verbs.)

CJ

Marold · Answer

Yes, with these structures I am familiar quite well!

It has never occured to me that it is the example of past subjunctive!

Thank you CJ.

Marold · Answer

And what about these sentences? Do they even both make sense?

"He insisted that he went to bed."

"He insisted that he go to bed."

CalifJim · Answer

Marold"He insisted that he went to bed."
"He insisted that he go to bed."

Is the first 'he' the same as the second 'he', or are these two different people?

You need to construct your examples more carefully.

Tom insisted that Laura went to bed.
Tom insisted that Laura go to bed.

Yes, they both make sense.

CJ

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