"-ing" forms as Pure nouns or Gerunds

Question

.Hi teachers,

Are both of the words 'development' and 'developing' nouns?

Here is a pair of sentences:

- developing of the country is dependent on youngsters.
- development of the country is dependent on youngsters.

The word 'development' in the example above is a pure noun. Am I right, teachers? But how about the word 'developing'? Is it a pure noun? Or is it a gerund?

Could you please explain the difference between a pure noun (with an -ing end) and a gerund to me if any really exists?

Thank you.

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

LaboriousThe word 'development' in the example above is a pure noun.

Or a deverbal noun. A noun derived from a verb, but not by adding -ing, in this case the verb 'develop'. 'chair', 'sun', and 'dog' are better examples of pure nouns.

LaboriousBut how about the word 'developing'? Is it a pure noun? Or is it a gerund?

I don't think there is just one answer to this question. Different people explain it in different ways. I don't think the distinction matters much. It seems to me that opinion is now shifting in the world of grammar regarding these distinctions. Sometimes people make a distinction depending on how the -ing word is used. In structures with the and of like the developing of the country; the finding of the gold; the dividing of the spoils; the changing of the guard, which have no objects, the name is sometimes "verbal noun". But without the and of and with an object the name could be "gerund", as in developing the country, finding the gold, dividing the spoils, changing the guard.

The verbal nouns take adjectives; the gerunds take adverbs.

the careful dividing of the spoils; dividing the spoils carefully

Some grammarians call both cases "gerunds". It depends on which book you read.

This thread might interest you. gerund or verbal noun

CJ

Laborious · Answer

Thank you very much, CJ, for your informative reply and link.

So, can I say, in conclusion, that depending on how we use an -ing form it could be anything a gerund, a verbal and deverbal noun, a present participle.

Here are some examples:
- Ignoring the laws is no excuse.
(Here, the word 'ignoring' is a gerund because it has 'the laws' as its object. And the whole verb phrase (or gerund phrase) is being used as a noun in the sentence.)

- Ignoring of the laws is no excuse.
(Here, the word 'ignoring' is a noun/verbal noun/deverbal noun because it's followed by a prepositional phrase 'of the laws'.)

- Ignoring the laws, he parked his bike there.
(Here, the word 'ignoring' is a present participle which together 'the laws' forms an adjectival phrase.)

Dear CJ, am I right about my understandings (in the brackets) of the sentences above? The wikipedia article on verbal nouns and deverbal nouns says that some grammarians call 'verbal nouns' 'deverbal nouns'? Does this mean that the category of -ing verbal nouns and the category of -ing deverbal nouns are same?)

Teachers, I have been confused especially about using different names for an -ing word. Is the distinction between these terms (gerunds, verbal nouns and deverbal nouns, and present participles) hidden in their functions (i.e., how they are used in a sentence)?

Thank you again, CJ, for helping me by replying.

CalifJim · Answer

LaboriousSo, can I say, in conclusion, that depending on how we use an -ing form it could be anything a gerund, a verbal and deverbal noun, a present participle.

Personally, I almost always use the term 'deverbal' when the noun is derived from a verb, but does NOT end in -ing. Otherwise, I agree with your conclusion.

Laborious- Ignoring the laws is no excuse. (Here, the word 'ignoring' is a gerund because it has 'the laws' as its object. And the whole verb phrase (or gerund phrase) is being used as a noun in the sentence.)

Right.

Laborious- Ignoring of the laws is no excuse. (Here, the word 'ignoring' is a noun/verbal noun/deverbal noun because it's followed by a prepositional phrase 'of the laws'.)

These always occur with the as far as I know, so it's The ignoring of the laws. I would call ignoringa verbal noun in this context.

Laborious- Ignoring the laws, he parked his bike there. (Here, the word 'ignoring' is a present participle which together 'the laws' forms an adjectival phrase.)

Yes, but strictly speaking, it's not an adjectival phrase. These days it's called a participle clause or participial phrase.

LaboriousThe wikipedia article on verbal nouns and deverbal nouns says that some grammarians call 'verbal nouns' 'deverbal nouns'.

I'm not one of them.

LaboriousDoes this mean that the category of -ing verbal nouns and the category of -ing deverbal nouns are same?

For those grammarians, I suppose the two categories are the same, but as I said, I'm not one of them. I make a distinction, which I have already described for you above.

LaboriousIs the distinction between these terms (gerunds, verbal nouns and deverbal nouns, and present participles) hidden in their functions (i.e., how they are used in a sentence)?

Yes, of course. If I give you an isolated -ing word (taking, bringing, swimming, etc.), there is no way you can say exactly what it is, other than it has the form of a present participle.

CJ

Laborious · Answer

Thank you once again, CJ, for explaining everything precisely.

In your former reply, you said, "Or a deverbal noun. A noun derived from a verb, but not by adding -ing, in this case the verb 'develop'. 'chair', 'sun', and 'dog' are better examples of pure nouns." and then in your latter reply, "Personally, I almost always use the term 'deverbal' when the noun is derived from a verb, but does NOT end in -ing. Otherwise, I agree with your conclusion."

I think I see your point here, I mean why it's better to call the words such as 'chair', 'sun', and 'dog' pure nouns. Because these are concrete things. We can see or/and touch them. Am I right, sir?

But sir, I don't understand why you call a noun derived form a verb by adding -ing (as a suffix) a verbal noun and a noun derived from the same verb, but by using a different suffix, a deverbal noun?

For example, you wouldn't call the "-ing" form in "The ignoring of the laws" a deverbal noun, because it ends in -ing, but would certainly call it a verbal noun. Likewise, you wouldn't prefer calling the "-ing" form in The developing of the country a deverbal noun, but a verbal noun. Personally, you almost always use the term deverbal nouns for nouns that are derived form verbs, but not by adding the -ing suffix.

Sir, my question to you is: Is there any specific reason behind your calling the nouns derived from verbs by using the -ing suffixes (as with 'ignoring' and 'developing') verbal nouns and the nouns derived from verbs by adding different suffixes (as with 'ignorance' and 'development') deverbal nouns?

Thank you.

CalifJim · Answer

LaboriousI think I see your point here, I mean why it's better to call the words such as 'chair', 'sun', and 'dog' pure nouns. Because these are concrete things. We can see or/and touch them. Am I right, sir?

Right. (It's a bit strange to address people as "sir" on a forum. You may drop that term.)

Laborious Is there any specific reason behind your calling the nouns derived from verbs by using the -ing suffixes (as with 'ignoring' and 'developing') verbal nouns and the nouns derived from verbs by adding different suffixes (as with 'ignorance' and 'development') deverbal nouns?

Yes. The specific reason is that I read these definitions in books and online. You can find this distinction in several reference sources, but note that not all grammarians classify these things in exactly the same way. You yourself need not preserve the distinction if you don't like it, but since you asked if there was a distinction, I told you.

One thing that might be confusing is that there are words in English like the noun "building". The building was locked; no one could get in. This kind of word is an exception. It represents a physical object, and it has no verb-like meaning at all in this usage in spite of coming from the verb build. Therefore, you can call it a deverbal noun even though it ends in -ing.

http://grammar.about.com/od/tz/g/verbalnounterm.htm

http://grammar.about.com/od/d/g/Deverbal.htm

CJ

Laborious · Answer

Thank you so much, CJ, for your help and for the informative links you gave!

I think I got your point here. I think the reason why you don't (and now I should not either) call a noun derived from a verb with the -ing suffix a deverbal noun is that they can be used as gerunds (a verb internally and a noun externally) as well. And a gerund is a word formed from a verb by adding the suffix -ing at the end. A gerund behaves like a verb internally and like a noun externally. CJ, could this be the reason why you don't call an 'ing form of a verb' a deverbal noun?

And thank to you for telling me about the exceptional case with the example of "building". I wasn't at all aware of this exception until you told me.

"-ing" forms as Pure nouns or Gerunds

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