Infinitve phrase questions

Question

Many sources on the internet (including the Purdue OWL) write that the subject of the infinitive is objective, thus "whom" is chosen in the following sentence:
"I do not know whom to follow.
They give no reason. If "whom" is the object of "to follow," what is the function of the infinitive phrase "whom to follow"? It appers to be a noun phrase serving as a direct object of "know." But then, what about this sentence:
"I ordered him to go." I do not believe "him" is the direct object of "to go." I am confused.
I do not believe an infinive phrase has a subject to begin with. Am I wrong?

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Many sources on the internet (including the Purdue OWL) write that the subject of the infinitive is objective, thus "whom" ... go." I am confused. I do not believe an infinive phrase has a subject to begin with. Am I wrong?[/nq]
You are wrong. I think I covered this fairly well in another posting. There is some confusion about phrases like "whom to follow," but in my experience an objective pronoun preceding an infinitive is called the subject. An infinitive can have both a subject and an object at the same time: "I don't want him to get the money." "Him" is the subject of the infinitive, "the money" is the object, and the full five-word phrase is the direct object of "don't want."

Bob Lieblich
But, of course, ICBW

Usenet · Answer

What about this sentence:
" I desired myself to win the race."
In this case the reflexive pronoun "myself" is not objective, but possessive (I think), yet it precedes the infinitive and assumes the "subject" slot for the infinitive.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]What about this sentence: " I desired myself to win the race." In this case the reflexive pronoun "myself" is not objective, but possessive (I think), yet it precedes the infinitive and assumes the "subject" slot for the infinitive.[/nq]
Please post after what you respond to. It's the convention here. We think it more important to have a uniform practice than to worry about which is superior. For a bit more detail see .

That said, "myself" has the same form in both subjective and objective (as do several other pronouns and all nouns). The reflexive pronouns either don't have a possessive or else take it from their basic form (same result either way), so if "myself" has a possessive it's "my/mine." So "myself" is indeed the subject of the infinitive in your example, and if case mattered(1) I'd have to say it was in the objective.
(1) Most linguists and more and more other authorities take the position that case is a matter of inflection, and where inflections don't differ you don't need to consider the issue of case. This has led to some long and vexed threads, particularly at the instance of Eric Walker, an irregular regular of this group, who is, shall we say, very much the traditionalist. It's not necessary to resolve that argument in order to respond to your inquiry, because the result is the same no matter how you describe it.

Bob Lieblich
Himself

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Many sources on the internet (including the Purdue OWL) write ... following sentence: "I do not know whom to follow. [/nq]
[nq:1] There is some confusion about phrases like "whom to follow," but in my experience an objective pronoun preceding an infinitive is called the subject. [/nq]
I think it is the subject only if it *is* the subject. "Whom" comes before the infinitive because "whom" is an interrogotaive pronoun and it is normal for that kind of word to come before a verb of which it is the object. "What should I do?"

The agent of the action of "to follow" is "I", and the person followed is "whom" so that's the object. But you're right; it would still be "whom" if it were the subject of the infinitive.

It's not just infinitives that have object-form subjects all non-finite verbs and verbals do. That explains the criticised yet functional participle clauses like "I don't like him singing so loud." It also explains the so-called "Mad Magazine sentences," like "What - me worry?" and "Him marry my daughter?!"

\P. Schultz

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2] There is some confusion about phrases like "whom to ... objective pronoun preceding an infinitive is called the subject. [/nq]
[nq:1]I think it is the subject only if it *is* the subject. "Whom" comes before the infinitive because "whom" is ... It also explains the so-called "Mad Magazine sentences," like "What - me worry?" and "Him marry my daughter?!" \P. Schultz[/nq]
In response to your sentence "I don't like him singing so loud":

I believe "singing" is a gerund in this sentence. The gerund is not preceded by an objective pronoun such as "him," but the possessive form "his." The question to ask is whether you do not like "him" or "his singing."

Usenet · Answer

(responding to P. Schultz)
[nq:1]In response to your sentence "I don't like him singing so loud": I believe "singing" is a gerund in this ... "him," but the possessive form "his." The question to ask is whether you do not like "him" or "his singing."[/nq]
This construction has been analyzed many times both here and in That Other Usage Group, alt.usage.english. You will find the Google archives for both groups littered with threads discussing it. The consensus is that it's more common in the UK and more controversial in the US, but lots of literate people use it, and frequently it is the only usage that will avert major surgery on the sentence. But the consensus is an uneasy one, and dissenters appear regularly.

Bob Lieblich
Who prefers "his" but has stopped complaining about "him"

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I think it is the subject only if it *is* ... like "What - me worry?" and "Him marry my daughter?!"[/nq]
[nq:1]In response to your sentence "I don't like him singing so loud": I believe "singing" is a gerund in this ... "him," but the possessive form "his." The question to ask is whether you do not like "him" or "his singing."[/nq]
That's what I meant when I said the usage was "criticised." You have just repeated the schoolteacher "correction" to the use of the participle. But the usage you criticise is part of the language, employed by educated people for a long time, especially in speaking.
If it were preceded by "his", then, yes, it would be a gerund. But it is preceded by "him", which proves that it is not a gerund, but a participle.
\P. Schultz

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]What about this sentence: " I desired myself to win the race." In this case the reflexive pronoun "myself" is not objective, but possessive (I think), yet it precedes the infinitive and assumes the "subject" slot for the infinitive.[/nq]
Please don't top-post. The flow of writing should follow the flow of time: that which comes first should appear first.
"Myself" is not possessive. It is a reflexive pronoun, and there is no way in which the form of a reflexive pronoun tells you whether it is subjective or objective. The accusative subject for non-finite forms is one of those things that we inherited from Latin (and perhaps through the Indo-Germanic route as well, but I don't know). Perhaps it will disappear, but it has stood up better than most Latin-esque rules of grammar.

Martin Ambuhl

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]In response to your sentence "I don't like him singing ... is whether you do not like "him" or "his singing."[/nq]
[nq:1]That's what I meant when I said the usage was "criticised." You have just repeated the schoolteacher "correction" to the ... gerund. But it is preceded by "him", which proves that it is not a gerund, but a participle. \P. Schultz[/nq]
"I do not like (him, his) singing so loudly."
Do you want to stress "him" rather than the singing? Then, use "him" as a present participle.
Do you want to stress the singing part of the equation? Then use "his" and the gerund.
The question is one of focus on your word of choice.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"I do not like (him, his) singing so loudly." Do you want to stress "him" rather than the singing? Then, ... of the equation? Then use "his" and the gerund. The question is one of focus on your word of choice.[/nq]
Nailed it.

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