In order that

Question

Could you tell me which one sounds unnatural among the following sentences?
Thank you.

1. He lelf early in order that he did not miss the train.
2. He leaves early in order that he does not miss the train.
3. He has to leave early in order that he will not miss the train.
4. He ought to leave early in order that he will not miss the train.
5. He has to leave early in order that he may not miss the train.
6. He ought to leave early in order that he may not miss the train.

Ozzourti · Accepted Answer

I guess you got hung up on that construction. I suggest you forget it. If had to use it, I would use it with the subjunctive so that I wouldn't have to worry about the tense:

He lelf early in order that he not miss the train.
He leaves early in order that he not miss the train.
He has to leave early in order that he not miss the train.
He ought to leave early in order that he not miss the train.

However, I'd much prefer "in order not to" in all four sentences:

He lelf early in order not to miss the train.
He leaves early in order not to miss the train.
He has to leave early in order not to miss the train.
He ought to leave early in order not to miss the train.

Lucas21c · Answer

Actually, this question is just to find out why, depending on wording, some sentences come to sound unnatural though they have the same structure as other sentences which sound natural.
So, could you tell me which one sounds unnatural among the above sentences?
I think, not only in English but also in all languages, there might be some suprastructures which are not formal grammar rules, but influence the meaning or nuance of a sentence as suprasegmental phonemes do. That's why sometimes the sentences that I think okay sound awkward, unnatural and even totally wrong.
I know these kinds of questions sound awkward to you, and you might not understand why I am obsessed with it. However, those questions are much more important to me than you might think because I am not a native speaker and I cannot distinguish 'in order to' from 'in order that' in terms of meaning or nuance. Actually, there are many things that I cannot notice the norm between right and wrong, or between natural and unnatural. However, if I don't try to figure it out, I will never speak right and natural English. That's why I need questions, not answers.
I hope you, voluntary teachers, understand the reason why I do this is because all the rules or answers that you suggest sometimes cannot be applied to other cases, and no one can memorize everything. So, I need to find out what makes difference for myself. Although you can give me corrected sentences and better answers, you cannot understand why I cannot understand because you never need to learn English.
I hope you will not misunderstand my intention. The reason why I ask you again and again is not because I am ignoring you or not following your answer, but because I am trying to find out the real answer for myself, being based on your answer.

Grammarfreak · Answer

Lucas,
Why are you still asking the same question? I don't get it. I have explained to you "in order that" is not a grammatical construction. Forget it! Also it appeared to me that there is something not quite right in these sentences between the syntax of " in order to catch the train " and " so that he won't miss the train ". I think there is a mental block.

1. He left early ~~in order~~ so that he would not miss the train.
2. He leaves early in order to catch that he does not miss the train.
3. He has to leave early in order to catch ~~that he will not miss~~ the train.
4. He ought to leave early so that ~~in order that~~ he will not miss the train.
5. He has to leave early in order to catch ~~that he may not miss~~ the train.
6. He ought to leave early so that ~~in order t~~hat he won't ~~may not~~ miss the train.

The edited in green are the normal collocation. For get " in order that ".

GPY · Answer

grammarfreak I have explained to you "in order that" is not a grammatical construction

This is not true.

Grammarfreak · Answer

GPY grammarfreak I have explained to you "in order that" is not a grammatical constructionThis is not true.

Well, can you elaborate on it with why ? Given the respect, apparently, there is a great difference between our opinions, or should I say, between the shores of the Atlantic.

GPY · Answer

grammarfreakWell, can you elaborate on it with why ? Given the respect, apparently, there is a great difference between our opinions, or should I say, between the shores of the Atlantic.

To be perfectly honest, grammarfreak, a good few of these "differences" are because I am a native speaker and you, as far as I can tell, are not. Some of the things that you say are just wrong, and are nothing to do with "opinion" or transatlantic differences. I hope you don't mind me being blunt.

Ozzourti · Answer

It is grammatical, but it is nowhere near as common as "in order to"—at least in my experience.

Look at https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=in+order+to%2Cin+order+that&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cin%20order%20to%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cin%20order%20that%3B%2Cc0

Grammarfreak · Answer

GPYTo be perfectly honest, grammarfreak, a good few of these "differences" are because I am a native speaker and you, as far as I can tell, are not.

Although this may be true, it is the stereotypical view of the general society that if you are not a native, your language skill must be flawed. I have never hidden the fact that I am not a native American, I also had answered your inquiry about me in past posts. But I had spent over two decades of my time studying this language and I take great pride in using it. Just so that you see my point. I have come across Caucasians who can articulate my mother tongue and know the language better than the ordinary native Chinese, even me. Why can't it be the other way around? You and I had a few heavy discussions and I asked for logical yet grammatical explanations with posts I'd researched from BBC and UK to substantiate my questions. But basically there was no concluded answers from you. For the question of " averagely", I would hope that this is not my ignorance but a clearly a Trans-Atlantic difference because it is never heard here.

GPYI hope you don't mind me being blunt.

Not at all. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. We all have our moments of fame and shame. Perhaps I should not have said " it is ungrammatical" just because I have never come across people who expressed in that construction, nor had I heard it before. I jumped the gun and I stand "corrected".

GPY · Answer

grammarfreakI have never hidden the fact that I am not a native American, I also had answered your inquiry about me in past posts.

Sorry, I think I must have missed that post of yours. I wasn't sure because it is not completely clear to me from your writing whether you are a native speaker or not.

Lucas21c · Answer

Grammarfreak, it seems you might not read my first reply.
I already wrote the reason why I ask this question again.
And, I extracted #6 from Oxford dictionay. The original sentence is "Come early in order that you may see him," so it is a little different from my original sentence, but isn't it enough to be a case that I ask this question again?
I do not understand why you say repeatedly that I must not use 'in order that' and even it is not a grammatical construction.
You will find the idiom, 'in order that,' here and in other dictionary also:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/in+order+that

I hope you will not put your students captive only in your answers. I would like to say it's a problem not about your answer, but about your attitude.
Frankly speaking, I don't care where you come from and what you do.
The only reason that I posted this question is I don't still understand why some sentences sound awkward and other sound okay though they all follow some grammar structure, and there is something that runs counter to what I know. So far, I have always continue to ask this way until I can understand and I don't think it is wrong.
I believe it is meaningless to make someone just follow your answer if he/she doesn't understand why you are right. And anyone can raise a question of your answers if you are a grammar master.
Please help me to find the way for myself with your help, not make me follow the way that you think it is right.

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