I/me

Question

Which of these is correct?John is going to do the training with Jack and I.John is going to do the training with Jack and me.I've heard many people saying "and I" like this, and it sounds wrong to me. I understand that if I were to rearrange the sentence so that it started "Jack and I are going to ...", it would be correct instead of "Jack and me ...", but using it as above seems to be a result of following a rule ("Don't say 'and me'! Say 'and I'!") without really thinking about it.Could you please clarify and explain?Thanks.Kitty.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

AnonymousWhich of these is correct?John is going to do the training with Jack and I.John is going to do the training with Jack and me.

John is going to do the training with Jack and me.

AnonymousI've heard many people saying "and I" like this

They are hyper-correcting. They have a vague sense of learning something about this in school, but they have forgotten what it was exactly. In their heads there remains only the diaphanous " 'I' is better than 'me' "

Anonymousif I were to rearrange the sentence so that it started "Jack and I are going to ...", it would be correct instead of "Jack and me ...", but using it as above seems to be a result of following a rule ("Don't say 'and me'! Say 'and I'!") without really thinking about it.

Right!

Anonymous · Answer

Anonymousbut using it as above seems to be a result of following a rule ("Don't say 'and me'! Say 'and I'!") without really thinking about it.

That is often the case. However, it just so happens that the opposite view is also unfounded. The truth is that both forms are correct. Those who reject with Jack and I simply assume that the case of a pronoun in coordination with another noun (or pronoun) must be the same as when it stands alone. This argument certainly seems plausible at first, but it does not stand up to critical thinking. First of all, the rules for coordinated noun phrases and those for non-coordinated ones are not always the same. With Jack and I/me is one example. Here are some more:

Contraction permitted:
I don’t know if you’re eligible.

Not permitted:
*I don’t know if she and [you are / *you’re] eligible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Determiners inadmissible:
I hereby pronounce you husband and wife.

Required:

I’ve met her husband, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen him with his wife.

Omissible:
Rap decided that he had better try to do something. If he couldn’t, then herdman and minstrel (~~herdman~~ / ~~minstrel~~) would have to beat a very fast retreat. (This is a very literary version of the herdman and the minstrel. Rarely occurs in everyday speech and writing.)

Required:
The herdman/minstrel would have to beat a very fast retreat.

Second, the so-called ‘subjective pronouns’ are not restricted to subject function: another example is It was I who found it. Nor are the ‘objective pronouns’ restricted to object function: Was it them?; Kim objected to him being given such a preferential treatment; For him to go alone would be very dangerous. In these last two examples the pronoun is actually the subject of the following verb.

Furthermore, examples like John is going to do the training with Jack and I are used all the time by many highly educated speakers. Oddly, even descriptivists tend to overlook this fact.

CalifJim · Answer

Anonymousexamples like John is going to do the training with Jack and I are used all the time by many highly educated speakers.

I have not noticed this at all. I can't imagine where all these highly educated speakers are hiding.

But I'll keep my ears open in the future. Maybe I've been missing something.

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

CalifJimI have not noticed this at all

Well, at least two other volunteers here have.

As have Huddleston and Pullum.

CalifJim · Answer

AnonymousWell, at least two other volunteers here have.

But their ears are not connected to my brain.

AnonymousAs have Huddleston and Pullum.

Nor are theirs.

CJ

PS. I think the example with I hereby pronounce you husband and wife is a big fat red herring, and I think you're astute enough to see that too.

Anonymous · Answer

CalifJim I think the example with I hereby pronounce you husband and wife is a big fat red herring, and I think you're astute enough to see that too.

I must not be, because if I were I wouldn’t have included it.

Anonymous · Answer

CalifJimPS. I think the example with I hereby pronounce you husband and wife is a big fat red herring, and I think you're astute enough to see that too.

So, are you going to share with the rest of the class?

CalifJimI have not noticed this at all. I can't imagine where all these highly educated speakers are hiding. But I'll keep my ears open in the future. Maybe I've been missing something.

"fivejedjon likes this"

Interesting...

fivejedjonHowever, H & P make an interestimg observation, which I think is true: "The pattern [...] is heard constantly in the conversation of people whose status as speakers of Standard English is clear". It is useful for learners to know this. If we tell them that no careful/educated/etc speakers use this, many will find out that in fact quite a few do.

(inb4 "Welllllll, I didn’t say highly educated speakers!")

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