If ... Will ...,

Question

After reading related explanations at many websites, I still don't know the answers to the queries below that came into mind. Any thought or comment would be highly appreciated.

1) What connotation would "will" in [1] impart to you? I would just say [2], but there should be some subtlety that [1] brings about. These are said to a man who insists that he stay up in an attic.

[1] If you will come down here, we can discuss it properly.
[2] If you come down here, we can discuss it properly.

2) [1] and [3] through [5] all have "will," but with [1] the discussion takes place after "your" coming down whereas with [3], [4] and [5] the actions of the verbs of the main clauses take place before those of the verbs of subordinate clauses. What makes this difference?

[3] If you will be late, you should give them a call as soon as you can.
[4] If you will be at the meeting, you might wish to prepare lots of PowerPoint slides as the president likes his direct reports to visually explain their plans.
[5] If you will interpret for the man, you need to prepare for it by reading a lot of his previous speeches.

My question may concern volition and simple future issues ...

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Hiro

Cwtch · Accepted Answer

1) What connotation would "will" in [1] impart to you? I would just say [2], but there should be some subtlety that [1] brings about. These are said to a man who insists that he stay up in an attic.

[1] If you will come down here, we can discuss it properly. Putting will in the sentence implies that he doesn't want to come down but if he is willing to do so, they can work it out.
[2] If you come down here, we can discuss it properly.

2) [1] and [3] through [5] all have "will," but with [1] the discussion takes place after "your" coming down whereas with [3], [4] and [5] the actions of the verbs of the main clauses take place before those of the verbs of subordinate clauses. What makes this difference?

[3] If you will be late, you should give them a call as soon as you can. In this case If you will' means, 'If you are going to be.' You may not be late. You shouldn't be late, but if you must be late, call first.
[4] If you will be at the meeting, you ~~might wish to~~ should prepare lots of PowerPoint slides, as the president likes ~~his direct reports~~ people reporting directly to him to visually explain their plans. This is similar to #3. It indicates something in the future
[5] If you will interpret for the man, you need to prepare for it by reading a lot of his previous speeches. I think the construction here is wrong. Your sentence indicates a willingness to perform the action, but I think it should be a pure conditional. It reads as if it is asking for permission. Similar to: If you will cook dinner for me; I'll do the dishes. I think you mean: If you will be interpreting for the man, you need to prepare... Now, it reads as simply: If you are going to do this then... My take is that the person does not have the choice to decline interpreting or not.

CalifJim · Answer

HSSWhat connotation would "will" in [1] impart to you? ...
[1] If you will come down here, we can discuss it properly.

The connotation is If you are willing to come down here, ... or If you consent to come down here, .... A gentle imperative is implied: Come down here, and then we can discuss it. Be so reasonable as to come down here, and then we can discuss it. Note that you cannot substitute are going to for will in this sentence. [2], in contrast, is purely logical: If this happens, then that can also happen.

HSS[1] and [3] through [5] all have "will," but with [1] the discussion takes place after "your" coming down whereas with [3], [4] and [5] the actions of the verbs of the main clauses take place before those of the verbs of subordinate clauses. What makes this difference?

What do you mean, What makes this difference? Your knowledge of the world tells you the difference between before and after. I'm not sure what you are asking.

In any case, the use of will in [3], [4], and [5] do not contain the 'willingness', 'consent', or 'imperative' type of will that is found in [1]. I might have used are going to instead of will in these last three. In all three cases it's a matter of what the future appears to be. This usage can be paraphrased as If it looks like ..., If it appears that ..., If it seems that ..., If the situation is developing in such a way that ..., If events are shaping themselves in such a way that .... I also notice that all three of these examples are advisory in nature.
___
Some if clauses can be used in either structure, that is, with either meaning. The entire context determines which meaning is intended.

If you will be at the meeting tomorrow, I will gladly explain the details to you at that time.
[Be so kind as to attend tomorrow, and then I'll explain ....]

If you will be at the meeting tomorrow, you should read these documents before then.
[If it looks like you are going to be at the meeting, ....]

CJ

HSS · Answer

cwtch and Jim, thanks very much for your easy-to-understand detailed explanations. I will delve more into them and may come back with more queries.

2)

[1] If you will come down here, we can discuss it properly.
[3] If you will be late, you should give them a call as soon as you can.
[4] If you will be at the meeting, you might wish to prepare lots of PowerPoint slides as the president likes his direct reports to visually explain their plans.
[5] If you will interpret for the man, you need to prepare for it by reading a lot of his previous speeches.

[1] come down (first) / discuss (second)
[3] be late (second) / give them a call (first)
[4] be at the meeting (second) / prepare (first)
[5] interpret (second) / prepare (first)

With [1], it looks to non-native speakers who are still struggling with this particular aspect of English as though we can discuss it now, and you come down later because of "will," which oftentimes adds futurity, but the timeline should be the other way around as you naturally think. I wonder why this discrepancy happens. I mean I know it's not happening, but looks to us like it is. With [2], I can understand easily--- without "will," A take place first, and then B. (If ... A ..., ... B ...) "Will" makes it seem like A takes place in the future, and B takes place beforehand. (If ... will A ..., ... B ...). I'm puzzled. This maybe has to do with whether the given "will" is of volition or anything else. "Willingness" you talked about above is volition, you know.

Hiro

HSS · Answer

cwtch
[4] If you will be at the meeting, you ~~might wish to~~ should prepare lots of PowerPoint slides, as the president likes ~~his direct reports~~ people reporting directly to him to visually explain their plans.

This may be off topic, but don't you use "direct report"?

Hiro

CalifJim · Answer

HSSWith [1], it looks to non-native speakers who are still struggling with this particular aspect of English as though we can discuss it now

That's understandable, because it can be confusing. The key here is that modal verbs like can and may and should apply to future time as much as to present time.

So in [1] the content of both clauses is in future time. The imperative-like first clause says Come down here, or, nearer in tone, Be so kind as to come down here. All imperatives are attempts to control the future actions of another, so the future marker will should be no surprise. By the way, I sometimes call this "bargaining will".

The second clause says what will be possible, i.e., what can be, once the imperative is obeyed. Here can shows a possibility that more or less suddenly comes into being at some point in the future. (Two modals in a row is not English, so there is no will can in English, but can serves that function even when it stands alone.)

I hoped I have not confused matters even more by this lengthy post.

CJ

Patrick Lockerby · Answer

[1] If you will come down here, we can discuss it properly.
[3] If you will be late, you should give them a call as soon as you can.
[4] If you will be at the meeting, you might wish to prepare lots of PowerPoint slides as the president likes his direct reports to visually explain their plans.
[5] If you will interpret for the man, you need to prepare for it by reading a lot of his previous speeches.

These all seem to me to have an American flavour. - ( US spelling: 'flavor', UK: 'flavour' )

In Britain, I would expect to hear [2] much more often than [1].

'will' can refer to:
volition, in which case you can substitute 'want to',
futurity, in which case you can substitute 'going to'.
If you want to come down ... do as you will, please yourself.
If you are going to be late ... If you know or predict that you will be/are going to be late, then ...

I want to be in France tomorrow, but I am going to be in England.
If I am late in getting to the airport, then I'll phone you.
If I don't want to be late in getting to the airport, then I must phone for a taxi.

The next two examples would be taken by most British English speakers to mean the same thing, that is: do whichever one of the two actions pleases you.

If you are going to eat, eat. If you are going to talk, talk. Just don't try to do both at once.
If you want to eat, eat. If you want to talk, talk. Just don't try to do both at once.

CalifJim · Answer

Patrick LockerbyThese all seem to me to have an American flavour.

That's funny. I would have said British. They don't strike me as American.

This leads me to think that they are neither American nor British, but old -- or at least falling out of use.

CJ

Patrick Lockerby · Answer

" falling out of use."

I think so. If Americans hear a term as British, and Bitish people hear it as American, then it is most likely to be archaic.

Some of the old 'bookish' forms are being used less and less.
I think this is due to the fact that we so commonly use the forms 'll and 'd in speech.
If somebody says "I'll let you know." it is impossible to know without asking whether the speaker intends this to mean shall or will. I would be surprised if anyone who has not studied prescriptive grammar would believe that there is a difference of meaning between 'shall' and 'will'.

CalifJim · Answer

Patrick Lockerbywhether the speaker intends this to mean shall or will.

Good point. Except for a very small number of stereotyped usages (e.g., Shall we ...?), shall has been virtually non-existent in American English for at least 50 years.

CJ

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