"If" or "when"

Question

Dear teachers,is it possible to use "when" as well as "if" in the following context:At the theatre: A man is very late and doesn't get a ticket anymore. He is angry but sb. tells him:"If / when you come early in the evening, there is a higher chance to get a ticket."Am I correct that I could also use a first conditional here: If you..... there will be....Would it also work with a "when" construction?  When you come.... there will be a higher chance....To me the last one sounds a little odd because there's no intention involved. But it is really wrong?Thank you in advance!!!

MrGuedes · Accepted Answer

I think that using 'if' makes more sense. Using 'when' indicates an assumption that the man will actually go there in the evening. It suggests that the speaker knows that the man will come—which doesn't make much sense, because the speaker is only giving that man a piece of advice, not knowing whether he will follow it or not. As such, I do not recommend 'when'.

The first conditional can also be used there. It would be, technically, the most correct to be used, since it is only referring to a probable scenario, and it cannot be guaranteed that, for some unpredictable reason, there will not be a higher chance. So I think it is more appropriate to use the conditional type 1; however, the conditional type 0, as you are using it, does not seem to be wrong there, and might probably be the most natural thing to say.

Fivejedjon · Answer

1. If you come early in the evening. there is ...
2. If you come early in the evening, there will be ...

1. - This is presented as a general truth. 'You' is most likely to be the indefinite pronoun, the informal, but very common, alternative to the rather stuffy 'one'.

2. - This could be either:
a - A general truth. 'Will' suggests certainty rather than futurity. 'You' is probably indefinite.
b - A future possibility. 'You' could be indefinite or, more probably, referring to the person addressed.

3. When you come early in the evening. there is ...
4. When you come early in the evening, there will be ...

3. A general truth. Unlike #1, it assumes that people do come.
4. A future certainty

I would say 'more chance of getting a ticket' rather than 'a higher chance to get a ticket'.

MrGuedes · Answer

fivejedjon1. If you come early in the evening. there is ...
2. If you come early in the evening, there will be ...

fivejedjon3. When you come early in the evening. there is ...
4. If you come early in the evening, there will be ...

I think you've made a mistake. Your sentences 2 and 4 are the same. I believe your sentence 4 ought to start with 'when'.

Fivejedjon · Answer

Thank you, MrG. I have corrected it.

Ronpurr · Answer

Dear MrGuedes, thank you very much for your answer!I It really helped a lot.

At school we learn that you can use both "when" and "if" when you talk about things that are always true, in the sense of "whenever". So the >>When you come early..there is a higher chance>> should work, too, according to this rule. What do you think? Have you ever heard about this rule? In all, your explanation seems absolutely logical to me.
The sentence >> When you come.... there will>> really is about certainty, a planned action. So it is not appropriate.

.

MrGuedes · Answer

RonpurrAt school we learn that you can use both "when" and "if" when you talk about things that are always true, in the sense of "whenever". So the >>When you come early..there is a higher chance>> should work, too, according to this rule. What do you think? Have you ever heard about this rule?

Not really. I'm not a native English speaker, so I can't tell anything better than fivejedjon, who has also answered you. But it sounds odd to use 'when' for something that may not happen. Generally, using 'when' implies that the action referred to will happen for sure.

I remember, at least once hearing the following expression about an imminent disaster: 'It is not a matter of "if it happens", but of "when it happens".' I can't remember the context, but the point is that the disaster is really imminent, and one can be virtually sure that it will really happen someday.

Here's another example, this time taken from the Oxford Dictionaries entry for 'if': 'If you have a complaint, write to the director.' If you were to say 'When you have a complaint, write to the director', it would sound like the speaker is assuming that, at some point, the person is question will really have a complaint—which is strange to say (unless the speaker is a prophet or something like that).

One more example, perhaps closer to the one of your question: 'If we go out, she nearly always ends up in hospital.' Here, unlike in the previous case, it could be appropriate to say 'When we go out, she nearly always ends up in hospital.' This is because the speaker seems to know that she ends up in hospital from experience. In other words, it implies that, in the past, they have gone out many times, and she ended up in hospital most of them. So they can tell this from experience. Using 'when' instead of 'if' could refer to a general rule: this happens (or, at least, has been happening so far) so often that we can turn it into a general rule and say that. If, instead, you say 'When we go out, she will probably end up in hospital', it would sound like they are planning to go out, and warning that she will probably end up in hospital.

Back to your problem, I suggest saying 'If you come early in the evening, there is a higher chance of getting a ticket' (or 'there will be...'), since, from context, it sounds like the intention is for the man to give advice. Saying 'When you come early in the evening...' would sound like he is referring to coming early in general, describing, from experience, what happens when people come earlier (meaning 'when anyone comes earlier...'). You could say that, but the meaning really is sightly different.

Ronpurr · Answer

Dear Mr Guedon, dear fivejedjon

I've never expected to get such wonderful advice in grammar questions! Thank you so much, both of you! So an hour ago I got myself registered as well.
I took me some time to figure out how to reply to everybody at the same time (now I know it happens automatically, no matter whose reply button I press). So I tried with Mr Guedon first - this is why I only said thank you to him who was in fact right to remark that you, fivejedjon, also answered my question. I did not intend to be impolite, sorry.

Have a nice day

Ronpurr

Fivejedjon · Answer

Welcome to th forum, Runpurr.

MrGuedes · Answer

RonpurrI've never expected to get such wonderful advice in grammar questions! Thank you so much, both of you!

You are welcome! And thank you for the great appreciation. We're here whenever you want!

RonpurrHave a nice day

You too!

"If" or "when"

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