If I'll Be Late, I'll Call You

Question

If I'll be late, I'll call you.I know some people do not like this sentence with the will of simple future, but I'll just assme this is acceptable here. The main clause talks about a preventive action based on the possibility given by the if clause. I just made up two sample sentences with the same kind of logic. Are they acceptable to the same degree If I'll be late, I'll call you is?- If he will be given so much work, he will quit the company because he can't stand the stress.- If the patient will show the symptoms eventually, the doctors will give him the newly developed preventive shot to stop them.Hiro

Avangi · Accepted Answer

I'm afraid there's an essential difference here. When the person calls to say he will be late, he is not yet late. Your examples are quite different. You're predicting the quitting will follow the giving of the work. The quitting will be the result of the giving.

In the phone example, the calling preceeds the being late. The time factors are reversed.

Anyway, your examples don't work.

"If it looks like he will be overloaded with work, we'll hire a temporary worker to give him a hand."

(This one is okay.) That is, we will take the precautionary step before the overload occurs - just as I will call before I am late.

Edit.Sorry, Hiro, I didn't read your last example carefully. That one is okay, because the doctors will give the shot before the patient shows the symptoms. Sorry about that!

(The penultimate example should be "If he is given so much work, etc." I guess you know that.)

CalifJim · Answer

The following, in my opinion, are the most idiomatic forms of your sentences.

If I'm going to be late, I'll call you.
If he is given any more work, he will quit ...
If the patient begins to show symptoms, the doctors will ...

CJ

HSS · Answer

AvangiI'm afraid there's an essential difference here. When the person calls to say he will be late, he is not yet late. Your examples are quite different. You're predicting the quitting will follow the giving of the work. The quitting will be the result of the giving.

In the phone example, the calling preceeds the being late. The time factors are reversed.

Anyway, your examples don't work.

"If it looks like he will be overloaded with work, we'll hire a temporary worker to give him a hand."

(This one is okay.) That is, we will take the precautionary step before the overload occurs - just as I will call before I am late.

Edit. Sorry, Hiro, I didn't read your last example carefully. That one is okay, because the doctors will give the shot before the patient shows the symptoms. Sorry about that!

(The penultimate example should be "If he is given so much work, etc." I guess you know that.)

I'm venturing to ask you about this construct, although I know this if-clause carrying the simple-future "will" with the main clause conveying a preventive, or precautionary, measure seems a rarity, and that it does not appear to be well accepted by a majority of people.

If he will be given so much work, he will quit the company because he can't stand the stress.

I assumed by saying "given so much work" one could imagine a certain amount of stress can possibly be exerted, and that, according to this sentence, that will be prevented (preceded) by quitting the company. But it looks as though you should spell out the stress part in the if clause.

I spelt out the direct cause for the preventive action:

If he will possibly be stressed out from excessive work, he will easily quit the company before he is assigned to the work.

(I know "If it looks like he is going to be stressed out ..., he will/is going to easily quit ...," or "If it looks like he is going to be stressed out ..., he easily quits ..." is much better)

Avangi · Answer

Hi Hiro,
After Jim shot me down on this he wrote a really great and comprehensive reply to my separate post on the subject.

I just want to be sure you've read it.

I'll respond to your questions here after I've caught my breath.

Generally speaking, the following is the only one of your examples which my ear will not accept:

If he will be given so much work, he will quit the company because he can't stand the stress.

CalifJim · Answer

AvangiGenerally speaking, the following is the only one of your examples which my ear will not accept:

If he will be given so much work, he will quit the company because he can't stand the stress.

My ear doesn't accept it either -- for two reasons, a very small one, and a bigger one:

1. The use of so is unidiomatic. There is no that clause to complete it, as in
He will be given so much work that he will quit.

The so problem can be corrected thus:
If he will be given any more work, he will quit ...

2. But even now that that minor problem is not interfering with our intuitions, it's nearly impossible to conceive of the additional work as not being the cause of the quitting.
It seems that whenever there is a very obvious causation (the situation in the if-clause causing the situation in the main clause), it's very awkward to use if ... will ....

Compare:
There is no causation here:

If you'll buy the pizza, I'll buy the beer.

Your buying the pizza does not cause my buying the beer.

There is causation here:
If you buy the pizza, it will cost you $20.
Your buying the pizza causes you to incur the stated cost.
Incurring costs is part and parcel of what "buying" is.

Hence, if ... will ... is anomalous here:
*If you will buy the pizza, it will cost you $20.
____

Furthermore, there is not (so it seems to me) any feature in if he will be given any more work that sanctions the use of will, such as willingness, consent, bargaining, or benefit.
The meaning is certainly not if he consents to be given any more work, for example. That there is no such personal involvement of the subject (he) is made even more clear by the use of the passive voice. The subject (he) is being acted upon by those who are piling on the work; he has no say in the matter. His willingness, consent, etc., don't enter into it.

CJ

HSS · Answer

Thanks, Avangi. I devoured Jim's summation in your separate thread, and I think I understand it.

AvangiGenerally speaking, the following is the only one of your examples which my ear will not accept:

If he will be given so much work, he will quit the company because he can't stand the stress.

So are you saying your ear accepts "If he will possibly be stressed out from excessive work, he will easily quit the company before he is assigned to the work"?

Jim, I'm still trying to digest your last post. To be honest, some of the sentences are difficult to follow.

Hiro

Avangi · Answer

HSS So are you saying your ear accepts "If he will possibly be stressed out from excessive work, he will easily quit the company before he is assigned to the work"?

Hi,
No, my ear accepts the version I made up earlier:

"If it looks like he will be overloaded with work, we'll hire a temporary worker to give him a hand."

This is like the "I'll call" example. There are three times involved: the time of the statement, the time of the decision and the remedy, and the time of the anticipated problem.

Edit. Okay, I see your point. Your most recent version fits. But it's so awkward it's difficult to parse. I have to override my ear with my brain, which sort of changes the rules of the game.

I think we need two actors. "If he will X, I will Y." (We're talking about my ear here, right?)

But the version (probably illegal) which I think applies to your examples does not treat "will" as volition, but as simple future.

"If he will die anyway, I won't waste all that effort."

This is hypothetical. We may or may not know that he's going to die anyway. But let's assume that he will.

"Since he will die anyway, I won't waste all that effort."

It probably sits better as a question:
"If he will die anyway, why are you wasting all this effort?"

CalifJim · Answer

Avangi"If he will die anyway, why are you wasting all this effort?"

It's possible that I'm in the minority on this, but I don't think so. I would say that the following is more idiomatic:

If he's going to die anyway, why are you wasting all this effort?

I don't hear myself saying willthere.

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

HSSTo be honest, some of the sentences are difficult to follow.

Keep working on it. Use your dictionary if you have to. It will make sense.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

CalifJimIf he's going to die anyway, why are you wasting all this effort?

I don't hear myself saying will there. Hi,
I understood this to be your position from an earlier post, and I don't dispute it in any way.
I'm just trying to tie up a loose end about which forms my ear did and didn't accept as natural.

I recall a long thread a few months back which got moved to Linguistics about whether English future is really a tense, or is just a modal. I'm still trying to digest the role of the modal in choosing "going to" vs. "will," vis a vis your post in the other current thread. Not an easy row to hoe. (I guess that's what rules are for.)

If I'll Be Late, I'll Call You

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