If I come or if I came

Question

I just had a talk with UPS customer service. I told them "If I come to pick it (the package) up, where should I go to?" Now I'm off the phone, I'm thinking, should I have said "If I came to pick it up ..." The idea is from the structure "If I were you, ..."

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I just had a talk with UPS customer service. I told them "If I come to pick it (the package) ... said "If I came to pick it up ..." The idea is from the structure "If I were you, ..."[/nq]
"If I came" sounds like you're not going to do it. I assume "If I come" was more appropriate in this case.
The (minor) mistake you made was to add a superfluous "to" at the end.

Adrian

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I just had a talk with UPS customer service. I told them "If I come to pick it (the package) ... said "If I came to pick it up ..." The idea is from the structure "If I were you, ..."[/nq]
'If I were you...' is a counterfactual (hypothetical) subjunctive, implying that I am not you. It's use would not be appropriate if you did intend to pick it up.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I just had a talk with UPS customer service. I ... idea is from the structure "If I were you, ..."[/nq]
[nq:1]'If I were you...' is a counterfactual (hypothetical) subjunctive, implying that I am not you. It's use would not be appropriate if you did intend to pick it up.[/nq]
I don't think the counterfactual subjunctive implies its converse purely as a matter of grammatical structure. For example, 'If I were to go to the store, I would wear a shirt and shoes' does not imply that you will not go to the store. It just describes what additional conditions will obtain if the counterfactual does come to pass.

Under this view, "If I were you..." does not, purely as a matter of syntax, imply that I am not you. It is the semantic reality that I cannot be you that leads to that implication. Similarly, "If I were to come to pick up the package, where should I go?" does not imply that you will not pick up the package.
Does this make sense?

Mike Nitabach

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I don't think the counterfactual subjunctive implies its converse purely as a matter of grammatical structure. For example, 'If I ... not go to the store. It just describes what additional conditions will obtain if the counterfactual does come to pass.[/nq]
Is there a counterfactual there?
For counterfactuals, how about these:
"were I there now, ..."
or
"had I done that, ..."
?
Perhaps I don't follow your argument.
R.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I don't think the counterfactual subjunctive implies its converse purely ... conditions will obtain if the counterfactual does come to pass.[/nq]
[nq:1]Is there a counterfactual there? For counterfactuals, how about these: "were I there now, ..." or "had I done that, ..." ? Perhaps I don't follow your argument.[/nq]
You've wrested my argument from its context, which is a discussion of the difference in meaning between "If I come to pick it up..." and "If I came to pick it up..."
I'm no grammar expert, so maybe what we're talking about is not the counterfactual subjunctive, but rather the regular subjunctive (if there is a difference).

Mike Nitabach

Usenet · Answer

Once upon a 2/28/04 11:01 AM, in the land of
(Email Removed), the good witch "Michael Nitabach" from (Email Removed) told the whole world all about how:
[nq:2]'If I were you...' is a counterfactual (hypothetical) subjunctive, implying ... be appropriate if you did intend to pick it up.[/nq]
[nq:1]I don't think the counterfactual subjunctive implies its converse purely as a matter of grammatical structure. For example, 'If I ... package, where should I go?" does not imply that you will not pick up the package. Does this make sense?[/nq]
It does. The common description of the subjunctive as "counterfactual" is unfortunate. The subjunctive can be used in counterfactual utterances, but it does not of itself define an utterance as counterfactual. In fact "hypothetical" might be a better description of the use of the subjunctive than "counterfactual". Outright lies are "counterfactual" but they are not couched in the subjunctive; that would give them away. "I paid what I owe" as a lie wouldn't work if it were phrased "Had I paid what I owe".

But neither are all "if" statements necessarily subjunctive. The indicative "If I pay what I owe, there will be a record of it" is perfectly valid. The subjunctive version "If I paid what I owe, there would be a record of it" is also valid. Note that the past tense of the indicative has the same form as the subjunctive present, "If I paid what I owe, there would be a record of it" (the difference is in the tense of the following phrase).

The original question could've used either the indicative "If I come, where should I go" or the subjunctive "if I came, where would I go", it doesn't make any real difference. The subjunctive perhaps implies a bit more hypotheticallity but there isn't much practical difference.
Carmen L. Abruzzi

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Is there a counterfactual there? For counterfactuals, how about these: ... done that, ..." ? Perhaps I don't follow your argument.[/nq]
[nq:1]You've wrested my argument from its context, which is a discussion of the difference in meaning between "If I come to pick it up..." and "If I came to pick it up..."[/nq]
Indeed. The context may not be terribly important in this case. But if we look to the context we see your example differs significantly from the one you quote ("if I were you..."). That quoted example looks more like a counterfactual to me.
[nq:1]I'm no grammar expert, so maybe what we're talking about is not the counterfactual subjunctive, but rather the regular subjunctive (if there is a difference)[/nq]
I'm no expert either. Let's see if someone who is
has something to say on the subject.
Thanks,
R.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I don't think the counterfactual subjunctive implies its converse purely as a matter of grammatical structure. For example, 'If I ... not go to the store. It just describes what additional conditions will obtain if the counterfactual does come to pass.[/nq]
I disagree. It does imply that you are not
going to the store now or in the forseeable
future. Otherwise, why would you cast the
sentence in hypothetical form?
If you said, "If I were to go to the store, etc", and then it became obvious that you were indeed planning on going, I would suspect you of playing at some sort of game or deception.

Michael West

If I come or if I came

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