I thought it would be nice

Question

Hi,I'm in trouble...Oh, you didn't like my surprise? I thought it would be nice surprise for you, I'm sorry...Oh, you didn't like my surprise? I thought it would have been be nice surprise for you, I'm sorry...Waht should I say? What's the difference? I'd say that both can be used in the same situation, but only if something didn't happen (= in this case the surprise was NOT a good one). If something actually happened, only the first is possible:So, you liked my surprise! I knew it would be nice surprise for you! So, you liked my surprise! I knew it would have been be nice surprise for you! &lt;--- noWhat do you think? Thanks:)

Yankee · Accepted Answer

Hi Kooyeen,

Though I understand your point, I don't think anybody would use the second sentence (I thought/knew it would have been be nice surprise for you) to mean the same as the first in either pair. To me, "I thought it would have been be nice surprise for you" still tends to sound as if there was no surprise at all -- even in the context, so "would have been" wouldn't be good in the first pair either.

Marius Hancu · Answer

Yankee To me, "I thought it would have been be nice surprise for you" still tends to sound as if there was no surprise at all --

Agree

Kooyeen · Answer

There's also a mistake, it should be "a nice surprise", I forgot the "a".

I see, thanks

CalifJim · Answer

And what's that been be about?

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

Think of it this way.

I think it will be a nice surprise for you.
I thought it would be a nice surprise for you.

I know it will be a nice surprise for you.
I knew it would be a nice surprise for you.

Not:

?I think it will have been a nice surprise for you.
?I thought it would have been a nice surprise for you.

?I know it will have been a nice surprise for you.
?I knew it would have been a nice surprise for you.

Think of the past tense versions in terms of what they are the past tense of, and I think you'll see why would and not would have is normally used in the situations you asked about.

CJ

Kooyeen · Answer

Yeah, "been" not "been be", I just pasted the sentence without checking what I was doing...

Thanks Jim, I see.
I think I have that problem because I'm still not sure how to backshift some verbs. Here's a cursed example, but it has "would", not "will":

Susan, this CD would be a good gift for Amy. But if you want to buy that skirt... let's buy it, honey. ------ Later... I don't know when, but later... ------ ...So Amy told you she loves Pink Floyd? Heh, I told you that live CD [would be/ would have been] a good present... Ok, never mind. <--- I would only choose "would have been".

Another verb I have trouble with is "should".
- I have a lot of stuff to do, I should be studying all day long for the exam, it's on Monday morning...
Monday afternoon...
- Hey Jessica, how was the exam? By the way, Tom told me he saw you at the party on Sunday... I thought you [should be/ should have been] studying all day! YOU told me you [should be/ should have been] studying all day... <--- I think it's "should be". It would be "should have been" if Jessica had said: "I should be studying all day, but I won't, because I also want to spend some time with my boyfriend".

And obviously, how can we forget about "could" and "might"? LOL, there's another thread going on about these...
- Stay away from the reactor, it [could / might] explode... Stay away, ok?
One day, later on...
- Mr. Mightabin, what do you remember about that day at the power plant?
- Well, uh, I don't know if any reactors exploded or anything happened, but a suspicious guy told me that a reactor [might explode/could explode - might have exploded/could have exploded]... <--- I dunno, I think all of them can be used.

What do you think?
And... what a mess, why don't you English speaking guys have different verbs to say different things, like normal people? (Italians, for example) LOL
Thanks in advance

CalifJim · Answer

Susan, this CD would be a good gift for Amy. But if you want to buy that skirt... let's buy it, honey. ------ Later... I don't know when, but later... ------ ...So Amy told you she loves Pink Floyd? Heh, I told you that live CD [would be/ would have been] a good present... Ok, never mind. <--- I would only choose "would have been". Yes, because you want the counterfactual here.

Another verb I have trouble with is "should". should does not backshift easily. This is because it is about setting obligations. Imperatives also set obligations, and there's no such thing as a past-tense imperative. (Time only goes in one directiion!) It's often better to change the verb than try to backshift should.
- I have a lot of stuff to do, I should be studying all day long for the exam, it's on Monday morning...
Monday afternoon...
- Hey Jessica, how was the exam? By the way, Tom told me he saw you at the party on Sunday... I thought you [should be/ should have been] studying all day¹! YOU told me you [should be/ should have been] studying all day²... <--- I think it's "should be". It would be "should have been" if Jessica had said: "I should be studying all day, but I won't³, because I also want to spend some time with my boyfriend".
¹Jessica can impose an obligation on herself with "I should be studying", but you cannot 'report' that self-imposed obligation with "I thought" because then you are not reporting; you are giving your own opinion, imposing your own obligation on her: "I thought you [should study / should have studied]" I would change verbs: "I thought (you said) you were going to [be studying / have to study]".
²Again, changing verbs, "You told me (you felt) you would have to study all day". (The grouping is not would have, but have to.)
³The "won't" is the set-up which sanctions the use of the counterfactual, so in this case you can say afterwards, "I think you should have studied all day" (if that's your opinion).

And obviously, how can we forget about "could" and "might"? LOL, there's another thread going on about these...
- Stay away from the reactor, it [could / might] explode... Stay away, ok?
One day, later on...
- Mr. Mightabin, what do you remember about that day at the power plant?
- Well, uh, I don't know if any reactors exploded or anything happened, but a suspicious guy told me that a reactor [might explode/could explode - might have exploded/could have exploded]... <--- I dunno, I think all of them can be used. I would not use the versions with have.

CJ

Kooyeen · Answer

Hi,
I really don't know how to thank you. I think I understand. This post is pretty long, but just because I wanted to write as many examples as possible to explain my "theory", and with some context.
I was making some weird mental mistakes, and letting context influence what the real part to report was. My theory is... The tenses in reported speech are not related to the tense used in direct speech. You choose the ones that make sense considering the situation as it is, as if you had to tell a story. Look, just like telling a story (the story is in blue, the tenses are underlined):

1 - I need some money. ----> I met Kelly. She needed some money. She said she needed some money. //Also: I met kelly. She needs some money. She said she needs some money.

2 - If I had the money, I would give it to you. ----> I met Bob. He didn't have the money. If he had had the money, he would have given it to me. He said if he had had the money he would have given it to me. //Also: He doesn't have the money. If he had the money, he would give it to me. He said if he had the money he would give it to me.

3 - I would buy the CD. But let's buy what you want instead, honey. ----> I wanted to buy the CD, but I didn't. That would have been a good present. I knew it would have been a good present. I told you it would have been a good present.

4 - I'm going to buy the CD. Kate will like it. ----> I was going to buy the CD. Kate would like it when I gave it to her. I knew Kate would like it. I told you Kate would like it.

5 - I should study for the exam, but I'm going to that party instead. ------> I met Jenny. She didn't feel like studying. She should have studied for the exam, but was going to the party instead. She said she should have studied for the exam.

6 - Kooyeen, the reactor might explode all of a sudden. ----> I met the technician. That day the reactor wasn't working well. The reactor might explode. It might have exploded eventually, I don't know (<--- Careful! This is one of my thoughts, and is not related to what the technician said!) The tecnician said the reactor might explode all of a sudden.

7 - Kooyeen, the reactor might explode all of a sudden. ----> I met the technician. That day the reactor wasn't working well. The reactor might explode. Actually, it might have exploded, but luckily nothing serious happened. (<--- Careful! I know it didn't explode in the end, but this is not related to what the technician said! I found out this later!) The tecnician said the reactor might explode all of a sudden.

Does that make sense?
Now, provided it makes sense, I still have some doubts.

A) Are there any verbs that are usually not backshifted, and the whole sentence is rearranged instead? I think you mentioned "should". For example, if someone says "I should see a doctor", the reported version would be "He said he had to see a doctor" or "He said he'd better see a doctor" or "He was thinking of going to the doctor"???

B) Some structures are weird, because I can't rephrase them like I'm telling a story, as above. One of those structures is "would like", as in "I'd like an ice cream", or "She'd like another coke". What's the backshifted version of those? Maybe I need to change them, and say "She told me she wanted another coke"...

C) In the above examples, #6 and #7 have "might", and "might" is backshift to itself, "might". I was wondering if the same happened with "could". If you replace "might" with "could" in #6 and #7, would that be ok too? I know "could" can be the backshifted version of "can", but I'm actually worried about "could" when possibility is involved. Like in this one, to make it clearer:
- If it's nice, I could go for a walk tomorrow morning. ---> I met Kate. She (could?) go for a walk the following day. She could have gone for a walk... (<-- Careful! This is a thought of mine, not related to what she actually said!) She said she (could?) go for a walk the following day.

I think that's all. I feel this stuff is not difficult after all, it's just that there doesn't seem to be an easy way to explain this complex situation.
Thank you in advance

CalifJim · Answer

1 - I need some money. ----> I met Kelly. She needed some money. She said she needed some money. //Also: I met kelly. She needs some money. She said she needs some money. All of this is fine.

2 - If I had the money, I would give it to you. ----> I met Bob. He didn't have the money. If he had had the money, he would have given it to me. He said if he had had the money he would have given it to me. //Also: He doesn't have the money. If he had the money, he would give it to me. He said if he had the money he would give it to me. All is this is fine.

3 - I would buy the CD. But let's buy what you want instead, honey. ----> I wanted to buy the CD, but I didn't. That would have been a good present. I knew it would have been a good present. I told you it would have been a good present. All fine.

4 - I'm going to buy the CD. Kate will like it. ----> I was going to buy the CD (because) Kate would like it when I gave it to her. I knew Kate would like it. I told you Kate would like it. For some reason I want to add 'because'! I don't know exactly why, so I'm not going to confuse things by writing a thousand words of speculation. I'll think about it.

5 - I should study for the exam, but I'm going to that party instead. ------> I met Jenny. She didn't feel like studying. She should have studied for the exam¹, but was going to the party instead. She said she should have studied for the exam.²

¹I hope you realize that -- under another reading -- you are giving your own opinion here, not reporting Jenny's. It's a little ambiguous. To be sure you're reporting her opinion, not your own, use "She [thought / felt] she should study for the exam".
²Not quite. Before Jenny says any more than "I should study for the exam", the report is "She [said / thought / felt] she should study for the exam", even if she says she's going to the party instead. Afterwards, if she has already gone to the party and regrets it, because she should have studied, but didn't, the report is "She [said / thought / felt] she should have studied for the exam".
_____
I think my remarks here contradict, in a way, what I said about backshifting should. The point of confusion for me with the previous set of examples with should was the use of I. In that example in the previous post, you can't say "I thought Jenny should ..." because then you are putting the obligation on her. But you can say "She/Jenny thought she should ...". That leaves her putting the obligation on herself, which is what you want to report.

Backshifting (reporting) the 'past-form' modals (would, could, should, might) can be thought of as backshifting them to themselves.
"I would go if I had the money" > He said he would go if he had the money.
"I could do that blindfolded" > He said he could do that blindfolded.
"I should get to bed earlier tonight" > He said he should get to bed earlier tonight.
"I might be able to help you tomorrow" > He said he might be able to help me tomorrow.

6 - Kooyeen, the reactor might explode all of a sudden. ----> I met the technician. That day the reactor wasn't working well. The reactor might explode.³ It might have exploded eventually, I don't know⁴ (<--- Careful! This is one of my thoughts, and is not related to what the technician said!) The tecnician said the reactor might explode all of a sudden.⁴

³This would not be used, or at least it would be very, very rare in AmE. This would be used instead: "The reactor could (even) have exploded." (It had the potential for exploding.) Alternately, the might would be buried in a subordinate clause: "There was a danger that the reactor might explode". Putting the subordinate might after a past tense in the main clause solves the problem of forcing might into the past; as you wrote it, it would be considered present time (even though past form).
⁴These are fine as written.

7 - Kooyeen, the reactor might explode all of a sudden. ----> I met the technician. That day the reactor wasn't working well. The reactor might explode³. Actually, it might⁵ have exploded, but luckily nothing serious happened. (<--- Careful! I know it didn't explode in the end, but this is not related to what the technician said! I found out this later!) The tecnician said the reactor might explode all of a sudden. All of this is fine, except as noted.

⁵(Or could.) Actually, in all your 'reactor' examples, you can substitute could.

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

A) Are there any verbs that are usually not backshifted, and the whole sentence is rearranged instead? I think you mentioned "should". For example, if someone says "I should see a doctor", the reported version would be "He said he had to see a doctor" or "He said he'd better see a doctor" or "He was thinking of going to the doctor"???
As I mentioned in the previous post, I got freaked out by changing "I should be studying" to "I think you should have been studying", and it through off my reasoning completely. Actually, as I also mentioned in the previous post, you can backshift should -- but to itself -- not to should have, unless time has passed and there is now regret for not having done what one should have done -- but then that would be reporting a different thought.. You just can't change the thought! It's "I should be studying" >> (I thought) you said you should be studying. (I thought you would be studying because you said you should be studying.) And you can change the verbs if you want. That's still an option, and one that's frequently used.

B) Some structures are weird, because I can't rephrase them like I'm telling a story, as above. One of those structures is "would like", as in "I'd like an ice cream", or "She'd like another coke". What's the backshifted version of those? Maybe I need to change them, and say "She told me she wanted another coke"...

Same as for plain would.
I would like some cake. >> I said I would like some cake.
She'd like another coke. >> She said she'd like another coke.

Compare:
I would have liked some cake. (I didn't get any) >> I said I would have liked some cake.
She would've liked another coke. (She didn't get another.) >> She said she would've liked another coke.
[These are 'counterfactuals' expressing mild regret.]

C) In the above examples, #6 and #7 have "might", and "might" is backshift to itself, "might". I was wondering if the same happened with "could". If you replace "might" with "could" in #6 and #7, would that be ok too? Yes, I mentioned that in the previous post before I even realized you had asked about it.. I know "could" can be the backshifted version of "can", but I'm actually worried about "could" when possibility is involved. Like in this one, to make it clearer:
- If it's nice, I could go for a walk tomorrow morning. ---> I met Kate. She (could?)¹ go for a walk the following day. She could have gone for a walk...² (<-- Careful! This is a thought of mine, not related to what she actually said!) She said she (could?) go for a walk the following day.³

¹Here again you have that problem of a past-form modal usually used with present-time meaning trying to pose as a carrier of past-time meaning in a main clause. And here again, you really have to bury it in a subordinate clause governed by a past-tense main clause to get that across. I'd go with "She said she could go for a walk the following day" or "She was available to go for a walk ... " or "She had time to go for a walk ...".

²I understand the meaning, but I'm stumped as to why it doesn't sound exactly right. My brain keeps jumping back to a counterfactual interpretation. It's like one of those cubes where you can see it two ways, and your brain keeps flipping back and forth between the two.

It would probably work in a complex real-life situation, though. Somebody might just spontaneously generate it, and it would be clear to me from context which of the interpretations was meant.

³could sounds perfect in this one. It's just a matter of could backshifting to itself -- and the past tense in the main clause makes everything come out all right.
_____
General remarks in the form of an aside about conditionals with can / could.

The backshifts are as discussed earlier.
I could go for a walk. >> I said I could go for a walk.
She could have gone for a walk. >> She said that she could have gone for a walk.

But in conditionals, strictly, can is to will as could is to would.
If it is nice, I [can/will] go for a walk
If it [were/was] nice, I [could/would] go for a walk.
If it had been nice, I [could/would] have gone for a walk.

So you have what's called a 'mixed conditional' to start with. (Are you trying to give me a headache?

)
But here, context tells us that a past form is being used with present meaning, in effect
If it's nice, you have the choice of going for a walk.
______

I'm not sure what more you need or what more I can say about these, but feel free to make up more examples, and we'll go through them together and see what we can see. (But bring aspirin next time!)

CJ

I thought it would be nice

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