I think we've hoed this row before

Question

The other day, in listening to coverage of the California recall vote, I heard a reporter say that someone had a "tough road to haul."

Today at lunch, I mentioned this to a couple of friends (one in her early fifties, the other, 25). I expected their agreement that the phrase is actually "... row to hoe."
Both, as it turned out, say "road to haul."
"How does one 'haul' a road?" I asked. The answer was that you'd be hauling something down the road. They wondered where "row to hoe" came from. I just looked at them, then mumbled something about their never having been on a farm, or never having tended a garden.

(Incidentally, need I say that "row to hoe" soon became jokes about Rhoda Ho?)
Next, I brought up the recent increase in the "incorrect" usage of "beg the question." (I'm hearing it more and more in conversation and on the radio and tv, and reading it more in the newspaper.) They didn't see my point. They felt that using "beg" to mean "raise" was perfectly okay, idiomatically speaking. Who was I to argue with that?

Despite the fact that both of my friends would have been more comfortable talking about programs and downloads, I kept going on this aue-type discussion of words and phrases. I asked if either had noticed the recent use of "kerfuffle" in the press. Well, no. (Have you noticed? All of a sudden, it's out there, repeatedly.)
Finally, just to see if these friends of mine had anything at all in common with me, dialectically speaking, I mentioned the phrase "if you think that, you've got another think coming."
I broke even on that one. The over-50 friend says "think" in both spots; the 25-year-old uses the think-thing version. She didn't understand why we used the other.
The fish and mac was tasty, by the way.
Maria Conlon

Usenet · Accepted Answer

I'm well over 50.
[nq:1]The other day, in listening to coverage of the California recall vote, I heard a reporter say that someone had ... their agreement that the phrase is actually "... row to hoe." Both, as it turned out, say "road to haul."[/nq]
Where they got this, I've no clue, save a speculation having to do with accents heard in speech.
[nq:1]"How does one 'haul' a road?" I asked.[/nq]
Ask the Vogons.
[nq:1]The answer was that you'd be hauling something down the road. They wondered where "row to hoe" came from. I ... They felt that using "beg" to mean "raise" was perfectly okay, idiomatically speaking. Who was I to argue with that?[/nq]
The misuse of 'beg the question' has been going on for at least 20 years, in the US anyway.
[nq:1]Despite the fact that both of my friends would have been more comfortable talking about programs and downloads, I kept ... recent use of "kerfuffle" in the press. Well, no. (Have you noticed? All of a sudden, it's out there, repeatedly.)[/nq]
I've not noticed but then I mostly don't notice the press.
[nq:1]Finally, just to see if these friends of mine had anything at all in common with me, dialectically speaking, I ... friend says "think" in both spots; the 25-year-old uses the think-thing version. She didn't understand why we used the other.[/nq]
THIS one I think I can explain. Blame it on Judas Priest, and their hit song, "You've Got Another Thing Coming."
(lyrics at
http://www.thesonglyrics.com/j song lyrics/judaspriest lyric2.html )

~~denny~~
Some people are offence kleptomaniacs whenever they see an offence that isn't nailed down, they take it ;-) David C. Pugh, in alt.callahans

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Finally, just to see if these friends of mine had ... think-thing version. She didn't understand why we used the other.[/nq]
[nq:1]THIS one I think I can explain. Blame it on Judas Priest, and their hit song, "You've Got Another Thing Coming."[/nq]
Sorry, no. "Thing" is too well-established among people who must have been using it before Judas Priest was ever dreamt up. In that song, it's used non-ironically, yes? So presumably the songwriter also comes from a dialect where the expression is "thing", not "think".

(How plausible is it in general that Judas Priest could have had that sort of influence on language change, anyhow? Hit song or no.)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Next, I brought up the recent increase in the "incorrect" ... okay, idiomatically speaking. Who was I to argue with that?[/nq]
[nq:1]The misuse of 'beg the question' has been going on for at least 20 years, in the US anyway.[/nq]
It was going on sufficiently for Fowler to notice it in 1926. I very much doubt that it has increased a great deal recently. Most people have not only never heard of the "correct" use, but were probably taught by people who were taught by other people none of whom had heard of it either. It's another lost cause.

Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The other day, in listening to coverage of the California recall vote, I heard a reporter say that someone had ... haul." "How does one 'haul' a road?" I asked. The answer was that you'd be hauling something down the road.[/nq]
You've never heard of a 'haul road'?:
http://web.hulteen.com/eric/deadhorse.html
Different folks say things differently. Don't be sick as a parrot about it.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]The misuse of 'beg the question' has been going on for at least 20 years, in the US anyway.[/nq]
[nq:1]It was going on sufficiently for Fowler to notice it in 1926. I very much doubt that it has increased ... by people who were taught by other people none of whom had heard of it either. It's another lost cause.[/nq]
Denny and Don: I'm agree that the phrase has been misused for a long time, but I've seen an increase in its usage of late.

Maybe it's only in my little world, but I've rarely heard "beg the question" in real, everyday life until the past seven or eight months. Suddenly, it's a hot phrase around here (where I live and work), and I think that's because "beg the question" has been used more on tv lately with the meaning "raise the question." I even heard it in a commercial the other day again, when "raise the question" was what was wanted.
"Lost cause?" I'm afraid so.
Maria Conlon

Usenet · Answer

Bill Bonde wrote (in response to a post of mine):
[nq:1]Different folks say things differently. Don't be sick as a parrot about it.[/nq]
How sick is "sick as a parrot"? I mean, I'm not sick at the moment, but I have been at times, and I never identified with a parrot. Perhaps I should have, eh? After all, I'm unable to fly when sick (or any other time, actually, except in airplanes). And all I can do is squawk when I have a sore throat or laryngitis. And I eat like a bird when I don't feel well. (Wait a minute don't birds eat like pigs, relatively speaking?)
Maria Conlon

Usenet · Answer

Maria Conlon filted:
[nq:1]The other day, in listening to coverage of the California recall vote, I heard a reporter say that someone had ... friend says "think" in both spots; the 25-year-old uses the think-thing version. She didn't understand why we used the other.[/nq]
And now for the acid test: let each of these friends hear you say "it wouldn't /feIz/ me" and ask them how they'd spell the word I've represented phonetically..
(I bet nobody says it's "feeze")..r

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Maria Conlon filted:[/nq]
[nq:2]The other day, in listening to coverage of the California ... think-thing version. She didn't understand why we used the other.[/nq]
[nq:1]And now for the acid test: let each of these friends hear you say "itwouldn't /feIz/ me" and ask them how they'd spell the word I've represented phonetically.. (I bet nobody says it's "feeze")..r[/nq]
I don't really see how "acid test" is an appropriate term here. "To beg the question" is an expression in Standard English which all educated people would once have been expected to know (as a part of training in logic), while "feeze" was and is dialectal and informal, with many different meanings, and both "faze" and "phase" in the sense in question have been used for more than a century:
From The Century Dictionary of 1895 at
www.century-dictionary.com
(quote, with pronunciation represented by ASCII IPA)

faze /feIz/, v. t. ; pret. and pp. fazed, ppr. fazing. (Also phase ; var. of feaze, feeze. ) To disturb ; ruffle ; daunt. (Local, U. S.)
A professor in Vanderbilt University, speaking recently of a teacher in Kentucky, said "nothing fazes him." Trans. Amer. Philol. ***., XVII. 39
(end quote)
(quote)
feeze 1, feaze 1 /fiz/, v. ; pret. and pp. feezed, feazed, ppr. feezing, feazing. (The several words spelled feeze, feaze, etc., being chiefly dialectal or colloquial, have been unstable in spelling,
and have become somewhat confused in sense.
Feeze 1, feaze 1, also written feese, feize, pheeze, veeze, faze 1 (q. v.), etc.
I. trans. 1.
To drive off ; frighten away ; put to flight.

2. To drive ; compel ; urge.

3. To beat ; whip ; chastise.

4. To vex ; worry ; harass ; plague ; tease ; dis-turb.
5. To do for ; settle or finish.

(Obsolete or prov. Eng. in all senses.)
II. intrans. To fret ; be in a fume ; worry : as, she frets and feezes. (Colloq., U. S.)
(end quote)

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The other day, in listening to coverage of the California recall vote, I heard a reporter say that someone had ... or never having tended a garden. (Incidentally, need I say that "row to hoe" soon became jokes about Rhoda Ho?)[/nq]
Maybe a mixed metaphor from people who confuse "were in for a long haul" with "a tough row to hoe".
But it may be an independent metaphor, derifed from somewhere else altogether.

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

I think we've hoed this row before

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