I got a punctuation problem....need help!!:^)

Question

Actually, I still can't figure out what's the correct usage of comma. If we want to use

an "and" to link two clauses, should we put a comma before the"and" ?

By the way, i really need to know what's the exactly time to use comma in sentences, thanx!!

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

Hi Maggie,

Welcome to English Forums. The short answer is: if they are long clauses, or if there are internal 'and's within any of the clauses, put a comma before the conjunction. If they are short and sweet, no comma is necessary.

'Mr. Johnson said that he was lonely and afraid, and that if we did not help him, he would have to sell his coat to buy a new radio.'

'I love Brussels sprouts and Abigail abominates beets.'

Comma use is case by case; there are no hard and fast rules; commas are for clarity.

MountainHiker · Answer

Mister Macawber,

'Mr. Johnson said that he was lonely and afraid, and that if we did not help him, he would have to sell his coat to buy a new radio.'

Is that correct? The reason for asking is that I try to treat everything post ",and" as a complete sentence. So using that principle, we get....

Mr. Johnson said that he was lonely and afraid. Independent clause 1.

That if we did not help him, he would have to sell his coat to buy a new radio. Independent clause 2?

I might be tempted to rewrite the sentence as:

Mr. Johnson said that he was lonely and afraid and that, if we did not help him, he would have to sell his coat to buy a new radio.

Varying the topic slightly, I always have difficulty with sentence of the form.

Independent clause + coordinating conjuction + subordinate clause + independent clause.

I go to the gym to work out every Saturday, but when I am tired, I usually lift less weights.

That's how I write it.

Other people say my punctuation is incorrect. It ought to be:

I go to the gym to work out every Saturday, but, when I am tired, I usually lift less weights.

According to some style guides (The Economist, for one), the commas must occur in pairs. You can "cut out" the subordinate clauses and have the sentence remain intact.

I counter that I would not "say" the sentence out loud in that fashion. I would pause only at the beginning of the coordinating conjuction and again after "tired," but not after "but."

What say you?

MountainHiker

Mister Micawber · Answer

I'm afraid, MountainHiker, you'll find me at odds with The Economist and about everyone else. As you will find me saying over and over, 'commas are your friends'. They are the most versatile of punctuation marks. They have the fewest 'rules'. Their only role is to make messages clearer. I compare the process to Occam's razor-- don't use more commas than necessary. Hang the coordinate clauses and the non-restrictive clauses and the lists; these 'rules' will drive the student up a tree (if s/he is not already clinging to one of the topmost branches). So, for the benefit of ESL/EFL students everywhere-- THE RULE: a comma is used to separate word groups if necessary for clear understanding.

Here are our sentences (I've added a couple of new ones):

(17f) 'Mr. Johnson said that he was lonely and afraid and that if we did not help him he would have to sell his coat to buy a new radio.'
(17g) 'Mr. Johnson said that he was lonely and afraid, and that if we did not help him, he would have to sell his coat to buy a new radio.'
(17h) 'Mr. Johnson said that he was lonely and afraid and that, if we did not help him, he would have to sell his coat to buy a new radio.'
(17j) 'Mr. Johnson said that he was lonely and afraid, and that, if we did not help him, he would have to sell his coat to buy a new radio.'

(9k) 'I go to the gym to work out every Saturday but when I am tired I usually lift less weights.'
(9m) 'I go to the gym to work out every Saturday, but when I am tired I usually lift less weights.'
(9n) 'I go to the gym to work out every Saturday, but when I am tired, I usually lift less weights.'
(9p) 'I go to the gym to work out every Saturday, but, when I am tired, I usually lift fewer weights.'

A message is a contract between producer and receiver: the producer is responsible for estimating the receiver's ability to interpret, while the receiver is responsible for having the ability to do so. Which of our sentences can be misinterpreted; which is confusing? Why waste those commas?

Well, we do need a few commas, but it is my opinion (see disclaimer in signature below) that there is a range of choices, and the selection is more a matter of style than structure. As you stated of (9n), "[Saying the sentence out loud], I would pause only at the beginning of the coordinating conjuction and again after "tired," but not after "but." Excellent tactic. I would explain (17g) similarly.

MountainHiker · Answer

Mister Micawber

Thank you for the thorough and exhaustive answer. I like your answer because it appears that I have freedom to do as I please, as long as it makes sense. Yet others claim that there are rules that must be followed.

I am inclined to do one of two things: 1) just keep doing what I am doing; or 2) adopt a style guide and adhere to its rules.

I like the first option better, as I have never been one to follow rules anyway. But if I were to adopt a style guide, I would probably pick up the Chicago Manual of Style.

Let me provide two more examples.

1) Mr. Johnston and his son have applied for a patent in the US, and if you believe the documentation, they also have foreign patents.

2) Mr. Johnston and his son have applied for a patent in the US, and if you believe the documentation, they also have foreign patents.

3) Analyzing the data reveals public support of conflict, for as environmental issues become a variable, attitudes towards war become more complex.

4) Analyzing the data reveals public support of conflict, for, as environmental issues become a variable, attitudes towards war become more complex.

I received the following advice from an EFL teacher & medical editor.

Regarding sentences 1 & 2.

Yes, this is formally correct and recommended[1]. However, the "also" is redundant in both versions, as is every other case of "and...also".

[1] I recommend it.

Regarding sentences 1-4.

In very formal prose, I would use the comma after the "and" and after the "for", but in informal writing, I would drop the comma after "and" in your first example, but I'd keep it after "for" in your second. Sometimes the comma is absolutely necessary regardless of whether one pauses in speech. Sometimes it isn't.

General Comments

I would use the comma after "for" for informal writing as well as for formal writing. There is some latitude about comma usage, yes, but not for every comma, of course. The best way to figure out how to use commas is to read how professional writers of clear and easy-to-read expository prose use them and to imitate. If you ever feel that you have to justify your comma usage, you can choose to adhere to the dicta of whatever style manual you find sensible. The best rule for comma usage is simple enough: If what you've written is unambiguous and clear without a comma, don't use one. If a comma mkes what you've written clear and unambiguous, use one. There are hard and fast rules about restrictive and unrestrictive relative clauses and some other comma usages, but you can find those in a style manual or something like the Harbrace College Handbook for Writers, or whatever it's called these days.

If you have any thoughts to add, I would be most appreciative. Your earlier answer appears to give me a lot of freedom, whereas the medical editor appears to claim that there are some hard and fast rules. Again, if you have any quick comments, I am interested. I don't expect you to analyze the sentences and provide exhaustive comments. At this point, I am more interested in your philosophy or method of attack.

Again, thank you for your answer. As you have seen, I have received a lot of different answers over time, each one proposing that his or her answer was the correct answer. I always struggle with this issue.

MountainHiker

Mister Micawber · Answer

I think he says pretty much what I did, if I classify what he says about R/NR clauses as a problem of clarification subsumed under my 'Rule'.

Of course there are more obvious places where commas are consistently needed-- like dates (since no one seems to like the military system). Then again, you and he highlight another factor-- register. More formal locutions will likely require more commas... because they are more convoluted.

That's enough for me. Shall we move on to [url="http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040921/323/f307c.html"]COLONS?[/url]

PS: Are you still with us, Maggie? Have you got another question?

I got a punctuation problem....need help!!:^)

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