I caught his reading my mail.

Question

While reading some grammar book, I encountered the following examples:
(1) I caught his reading my mail.
(2) I caught him reading my mail.
The book says that (1) is ungrammatical.
Do you agree?

For comparison, there's another "grammatical" pair.
(3) I remember his reading my mail.
(4) I remember him reading my mail.

If you agree with the book as to (1) being ungrammatical, how do you differentiate (1) from (3), which the book says is grammatical?

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

JungKim(1) I caught his reading my mail.(2) I caught him reading my mail.The book says that (1) is ungrammatical.Do you agree?

Yes. It's in a book, so it must be true, right?

JungKim(3) I remember his reading my mail. ... how do you differentiate (1) from (3), which the book says is grammatical?

By the verb. The determination of which pattern is correct is made on the basis of the verb.

catch takes one pattern; remember takes another. When learning verbs it's important to learn which grammatical patterns they can and cannot occur in.

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

I don't agree with the book; I think all are grammatical; 1, though, may have odd/infrequent sense/impression to it, but I don't beleive it's ungrammatical. Maybe the writer used "ungrammatical" for lack of a better term, however.

Nikoo · Answer

Dear CalifJim,
Could you please tell me if I have labeled the parts in bold correctly?

"I remember his reading my mail."
Direct object

"I remember him reading my mail."
Object complement

Thank you.

CalifJim · Answer

NikooCould you please tell me if I have labeled the parts in bold correctly?

I believe that in the traditional labeling system those are correct. I have seen so many different ways of analyzing these that I cannot guarantee that they are exactly what your teacher might be looking for.

In newer analytical systems his reading my mail and him reading my mail are called clauses and these clauses are complements of 'remember'.

CJ

Nikoo · Answer

Thank you. <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

JungKim · Answer

CalifJimBy the verb. The determination of which pattern is correct is made on the basis of the verb.catch takes one pattern; remember takes another. When learning verbs it's important to learn which grammatical patterns they can and cannot occur in.

When you said "a pattern", what exactly are you referring to?
Could you be more specific in relation to the two verbs?

CalifJim · Answer

pattern ~ formula ~ particular required order of elements

CATCH [objective] ---ING is a pattern.
REMEMBER [possessive] ---ING is a pattern.
AVOID ---ING is a pattern.
SUGGEST THAT [nominative] [base form of verb] is a pattern.

The police caught him stealing the money.
Nobody remembers their finding the documents.
We should avoid going there. It's too dangerous.
The committee suggested that he be promoted immediately.

CJ

JungKim · Answer

CalifJimCATCH [objective] ---ING is a pattern. REMEMBER [possessive] ---ING is a pattern.

CJ,
I believe there is a rule that, in formal context, a genitive case is preferred for a noun/pronoun preceding a gerund, and that in casual speech the objective case can be used instead. For instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerund
And I have never heard that the choice of case between genitive and objective entirely depends on the verb. If that's the case, why would such a rule exist in the first place?

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimI believe there is a rule that, in formal context, a genitive case is preferred for a noun/pronoun preceding a gerund, and that in casual speech the objective case can be used instead.

This is correct, but (small point) statements about preferences should probably not be called 'rules'. They are simply observations about English usage.

JungKimI have never heard that the choice of case between genitive and objective entirely depends on the verb.

No, it doesn't. I just gave you a few examples of what I was calling patterns, as you requested. That doesn't mean I gave you all patterns. There are hundreds! The more casual one for 'remember' is

REMEMBER [objective] ---ING.

Many verbs have several patterns that are considered correct.

And just because a gerund can be used with certain verbs (like 'remember') does not mean that you cannot use gerunds in other situations.

CJ

BillJ · Answer

JungKimWhile reading some grammar book, I encountered the following examples:(1) I caught his reading my mail.(2) I caught him reading my mail.The book says that (1) is ungrammatical.Do you agree?

Yes, I agree. Here's why:

(1) *I caught his reading my mail.
(2) I caught him reading my mail.

The crucial point is that "him" is the object of "caught", not the subject of the clause "reading my mail", so the pronoun cannot be the genitive "his"; which is why (1) is ungrammatical.

JungKimFor comparison, there's another "grammatical" pair.(3) I remember his reading my mail.(4) I remember him reading my mail.

(3) I remember his reading my mail.
(4) I remember him reading my mail.

Things are different here: "him" is the subject of the clause "reading my mail", so genitive "his" is OK. The choice of "his" or "him" is largely one of style, with "his" being more formal than "him". But both are certainly OK.

BillJ

I caught his reading my mail.

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