I can't watch my friend be killed

Question

Here's a movie quote from Kung Fu Panda 2:
"I can't watch my friend be killed."

I wonder if there's a reason for having "be" as opposed to omitting it.
Alternatively, I even wonder if having "be" there is grammatical at all.
Because "I can't watch my friend killed" would have been fine.

Any idea?

Ivanhr · Accepted Answer

"be" is required there, in my opinion.

I can't watch my friend be killed. (this one focuses on the result, which is still in the future)
I can't watch my friend being killed. (you're a witness as your friend is being killed)

I can't watch my friend killed. (killed here is equivalent to dead but I don't think you'll hear this; You can convey this idea with "I can't look at my dead friend or I can't bring myself to look at my dead/killed friend)

JungKim · Answer

Ivanhr"be" is required there, in my opinion.

Could you look at this then?
"We saw Spurs be beaten by United."
A grammar book says that this sentence is ungrammatical and that "be" should be omitted in order for the sentence to be grammatical.
Do you disagree with this grammar book or is this sentence somehow different from the original sentence "I can't watch my friend be killed"?

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimDo you disagree with this grammar book or is this sentence somehow different from the original sentence "I can't watch my friend be killed"?

The grammar book is right, but the analogous sentence with watch is wrong. It is due to differences in the properties of the verbs see and watch.

I saw my friend killed seems OK to me. I suspect that only a very few verbs can take that construction.

Neither I watched my friend killed nor I watched my friend be killed is possible. With watch you have to have the -ing form. I watched my friend being killed.

CJ

JungKim · Answer

It's "Tigress", a character in Kung Fu Panda 2, who spoke "I can't watch my friend be killed."
For what it's worth, Angelina Jolie voiced the Tigress character and she fairly clearly stated the "be killed" part, so I doubt that she somehow misspoke.
See the video for yourself at 1:09 for "But I can't watch my friend be killed."

CalifJim It is due to differences in the properties of the verbs see and watch.

And actually Tigress also says, in some other part of the same movie, "I can't stand to see my friend be killed." So Angelina Jolie consistently used the "be killed" construction regardless of the verbs "watch" or "see".

CalifJimNeither I watched my friend killed nor I watched my friend be killed is possible. With watch you have to have the -ing form. I watched my friend being killed.

You said "With watch you have to have the -ing form". I don't know what you mean by that.
As far as I know, "watch" can have bare infinitive as well as -ing form, just like "see", "hear", "observe", "notice" and some other verbs of sensory perception:
The following line is copied from Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary:
watch somebody/something do something They watched the bus disappear into the distance.
http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/watch

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimIt's "Tigress", a character in Kung Fu Panda 2, who spoke "I can't watch my friend be killed." ... Angelina Jolie voiced the Tigress character ...

It sounds wrong to me in the passive no matter who says it.

I would be quite happy with "I can't watch someone kill my friend".

JungKimYou said "With watch you have to have the -ing form". I don't know what you mean by that.

I was referring to the case where you have a past participle. My claim was that although you can have 'see someone killed', you can't have 'watch someone killed' (although I suspect you have another video where that is used as well). I claim that you have to change it to 'watch someone being killed'.

JungKimThe following line is copied from Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary:watch somebody/something do something They watched the bus disappear into the distance.

Yes. All that is true, but it's not the past participle of 'disappear' that's used there. It's the pattern "We watched the money stolen" that I'm objecting to.

CJ

JungKim · Answer

CalifJimMy claim was that although you can have 'see someone killed', you can't have 'watch someone killed'

I guess you meant to say "my claim was that although you can have 'see someone be killed', you can't have 'watch someone be killed' ". No??

CalifJim(although I suspect you have another video where that is used as well).

No, I currently don't. But I could find one if I have to.

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimI guess you meant to say "my claim was that although you can have 'see someone be killed', you can't have 'watch someone be killed' ". No??

No. I meant it as I wrote it. Remember, I thought that both 'see someone be killed' and 'watch someone be killed' sounded wrong because of the passive — in spite of the fact that they are used.

CJ

JungKim · Answer

CalifJimI thought that both 'see someone be killed' and 'watch someone be killed' sounded wrong because of the passive — in spite of the fact that they are used.

Now, I'm getting confused. Please let me know if I get it.

Generally, the rule in my grammar book still stands. That is, when a verb of perception is followed by a passive non-finite clause, the passive non-finite clause shall not include auxiliary "be" in its bare infinitive form in front of the past participle, but shall only include the past participle. In the case of "watch", however, the passive non-finite clause having only the past participle doesn't sound right primarily because of the lexical meaning of "watch".

Grammarfreak · Answer

JungKim,
CJ already explained. But I thought I toss in my two extra cents.
I can't watch this horror movie - The italic is a noun phrase.
I can't watch my friend getting beat up - This is a non-finite /participle phrase.
I can't watch my friend being beat up Same meaning as above.
All three are acceptable forms.

I can't watch my friend be killed. - "Be killed" is neither a noun phrase nor a non-finite clause. The sentence is incorrect. You need either "being" or "getting" to make sense of the sentence.

Consider these examples:
I can't stand watching my friend's life ruined by drugs addiction. Acceptable as "ruined " is used passively.

I can't stand watching my friend's life being ruined by drug addiction. "Being ruined" is a non-finite clause applied passively in the sentence, which is also grammatical.

I can't stand watching my friend's life be ruined by drug addiction. This sentence has the same construction problem as the one in discussion.

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimwhen a verb of perception is followed by a passive non-finite clause, the passive non-finite clause shall not include auxiliary "be" in its bare infinitive form in front of the past participle, but shall only include the past participle.

According to this formulation, the following should all be grammatical.

They heard him struck with a plank.
We watched the windows cleaned.
Jerry saw the farm animals fed.

And yet every one of the three is ungrammatical as I see it.

So now I'm confused. Are you sure you've got the rule right from your book?

I think we ought to clear this up before proceeding to other matters. What examples does your book give as evidence of this rule?

CJ

I can't watch my friend be killed

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