hyphenation

Question

should "toilet trained" be hyphenated?

Michael Chambers Teaching English · Accepted Answer

Dear Lakotajm

I am a lover of hyphens and lament their gradual demise. Initially, I thought that "toilet-trained" had to be hyphenated but then I Googled it and found that both options were common. I suspect that the hyphen is on its way towards extinction in this expression, however I suggest that in the meantime you continue using it with pride.

Kind regards

Michael

AlpheccaStars · Answer

lakotajm should "toilet trained" be hyphenated?

It depends on how you use it.

My toddler is toilet trained. (no hyphen)
We only accept toilet-trained children at our day care center. (hyphenated)

Michael Chambers Teaching English · Answer

Dear AlpheccaStars,

I see your answer has been approved whereas mine hasn't!

Be that as it may, my question is whether or not your two usages are actually different. I know that adverbial phrases become hyphenated when used as adjectives; but as I see it, "toilet-trained" is an adjective in both of your sentences, and so there is no reason to put a hyphen in one and not the other. Have I missed something?

Kind regards

Michael

AlpheccaStars · Answer

Michael Chambers Teaching EnglishDear AlpheccaStars,I see your answer has been approved whereas mine hasn't!Be that as it may, my question is whether or not your two usages are actually different. I know that adverbial phrases become hyphenated when used as adjectives; but as I see it, "toilet-trained" is an adjective in both of your sentences, and so there is no reason to put a hyphen in one and not the other. Have I missed something?Kind regardsMichael

Hyphenation rules are somewhat arbitrary, and if you are writing for a publication, you should always use the recommended style guide first, and a good dictionary, second. The editor will catch the discrepancies.

The phrase "toilet trained" must be hyphenated when it comes before the noun, so to avoid ambiguity.
a toilet [trained child] !!!
a [toilet trained] child

From one critic: (The full text is no longer on-line, but there is an abstract.)
http://tc.eserver.org/10815.html

I want to discuss one particular aspect of Chicago's hyphenation advice, which seems questionable at the outset and is so often abused in practice that I think it needs a good thrashing. This is the notion that a compound adjective should be hyphenated when it immediately precedes a noun, and left open when it follows the noun, for example in the predicate.

Chicago's example is fast sailing ship, which is ambiguous because it might mean a sailing ship that is fast or a ship that is sailing fast. Hence, to resolve the ambiguity, you hyphenate fast-sailing if you mean to say it is a ship that is sailing fast. But the hyphen is not necessary except when the phrase immediately precedes ship, because the phrase is not ambiguous elsewhere.

Michael Chambers Teaching English · Answer

Thank you Alphecca. I get the point. It does seem sensible to use hyphens for a reason specific to the context, rather than according to a fixed rule.

Just a final query - would it be considered wrong by mainstream grammarians to hyphenate compound adjectives as a rule, as opposed to when necessary to avoid ambiguity?

Kind regards

Michael

Fivejedjon · Answer

I don't think main-stream grammarians worry much about hyphens. This is a topic of interest to style-guide writers.

AlpheccaStars · Answer

fivejedjonThis is a topic of interest to style-guide writers.

And don't forget the lexicographers.

AlpheccaStars · Answer

Michael Chambers Teaching EnglishI see your answer has been approved whereas mine hasn't!

Michael Chambers Teaching EnglishI Googled it and found that both options were common.

We do not recommend (or approve) Google as an authoritative source of proper grammar to English learners.

Fivejedjon · Answer

Michael Chambers Teaching EnglishI see your answer has been approved whereas mine hasn't!

We mods do our best to verify only answers that are undoubtedly correct - and, of course, not to verify those that aren't. However, as you may have noticed in other threads, we don't always have the time, or confidence, to verify all correct answers.

I think the question of whether hyphens are essential, possible or wrong is too fluid for me ever to verify a response to a question about hyphens. but that is my strictly personal feeling. As you see, the verification of a post does not lock the thread and thus prevent further discussion of the topic .

A final note. Members are not invited to join the moderation team unless we have demonstrated, over a number of postsa pretty sound knowledge of English grammar and vocabulary. However, none of us claims to be an infallible expert. One of the immense values of a forum such as this, is that we can all disagree with anybody, so long as we put our counter-arguments (was that hyphen correct?) in a moderately civilised way. I remember once that somebody argued against something I wrote once so cogently that I almost changed my mind.

Michael Chambers Teaching English · Answer

Ok.  Thanks to you and Alphecca for your replies.  Kind regards, Michael

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