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A man earns an advanced degree in a field that requires, indeed is about, precise language usage. After working in that field he decides to devote himself full-time to writing and becomes tremendously successful with more than a dozen books published. He brings in more money for his publisher than any other author and thus certainly must receive the assistance of the most experienced and skilled editors.
The very first sentence of his latest book is:
"The shots that fired the bullets...were heard by no less than eight people." (John Grisham)
Ugh.
Richard Yates
(Who is by no means a language conservative but sometimes just cannot abide sloppiness.)

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]A man earns an advanced degree in a field that requires, indeed is about, precise language usage. After working in ... his latest book is: "The shots that fired the bullets...were heard by no less than eight people." (John Grisham) Ugh.[/nq]
Perhaps he wrote that because it would cause fewer readers to go "Ugh" than if they had read "fewer".
An author has to choose between language that it pedantically correct, and language with which the majority of target readers will be comfortable.

Traditional usage rules can be brushed aside in the process.

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

Usenet · Answer

...
[nq:1]"The shots that fired the bullets...were heard by no less than eight people." (John Grisham)[/nq]
...
It should, of course, be "No fewer than eight" or "at least eight." However, characters often have bad grammar. Were those the words of a character?

Mike Bandy
Who can't believe John Grisham would make that error

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"The shots that fired the bullets...were heard by no less than eight people." (John Grisham)[/nq]
[nq:1]... It should, of course, be "No fewer than eight" or "at least eight." However, characters often have bad grammar. Were those the words of a character?[/nq]
No.
[nq:1]Mike Bandy. Who can't believe John Grisham would make that error[/nq]
Believe it. (But it is the editor missing it that surprises me.)

Richard Yates

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]A man earns an advanced degree in a field that ... heard by no less than eight people." (John Grisham) Ugh.[/nq]
[nq:1]Perhaps he wrote that because it would cause fewer readers to go "Ugh"than if they had read "fewer".[/nq]
I do not think that those oblivious to the usage distinction would even notice 'fewer' instead of 'less'.
Richard Yates

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1] The very first sentence of his latest book is: "The shots that fired the bullets...were heard by no less than eight people." (John Grisham) Ugh.[/nq]
Maybe he was trying to sound more like a modern dynamic writer and less like a prissy English teacher.
\P. Schultz

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]A man earns an advanced degree in a field that requires, indeed is about, precise language usage. After working in ... people." (John Grisham) Ugh. Richard Yates (Who is by no means a language conservative but sometimes just cannot abide sloppiness.)[/nq]
You think the law is about 'precise language usage'? Not in the courtroom. Even if all you know of the courtroom is the OJ trial, it's obvious that rhetoric and snappy phrasing play a big part.
I didn't know that JG had an 'advanced degree'. When did he get that?

I have to say, for my part, that I find 'shots that fired the bullets' to be a weird turn of phrase though it can, at a stretch, be justified. And we know Fowler is not uncomfortable with 'no less' when attached to statistical enumeration. As a stylistic device, the phrase has an interesting resonance here 'no less a personage than...' 'no less a number than ...'.
However, if a character can wielderfight his penisolate war I don't see why we should be ragging on a ***-poor stylist like Grisham for taking what is already a slightly skunked phrase and pushing it a little further down the crapper.

John Dean
Oxford

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"The shots that fired the bullets...were heard by no less ... means a language conservative but sometimes just cannot abide sloppiness.)[/nq]
[nq:1]You think the law is about 'precise language usage'? Not in the courtroom.[/nq]
But it is in legal writing.
[nq:1]Even if all you know of the courtroom is the OJ trial, it's obvious that rhetoric and snappy phrasing play a big part.[/nq]
I don't hear 'less' as snappier than 'fewer'.
[nq:1]I didn't know that JG had an 'advanced degree'. When did he get that?[/nq]
Surely a Juris Doctor qualifies as an advanced degree.
[nq:1]However, if a character can wielderfight his penisolate war I don't seewhy we should be ragging on a ***-poor stylist like Grisham for taking whatis already a slightly skunked phrase and pushing it a little further down the crapper.[/nq]
It's also the editor that should be embarrassed.
Richard Yates

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]The very first sentence of his latest book is: "The shots that fired the bullets...were heard by no less than eight people." (John Grisham) Ugh.[/nq]
[nq:1]Maybe he was trying to sound more like a modern dynamic writer and lesslike a prissy English teacher. \P. Schultz[/nq]
And succeeded at neither.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Maybe he was trying to sound more like a modern dynamic writer and less like a prissy English teacher.[/nq]
[nq:1]And succeeded at neither.[/nq]
Well, he did avoid the prissy English-teacher English.

\P. Schultz

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]You think the law is about 'precise language usage'? Not in the courtroom.[/nq]
[nq:1]But it is in legal writing.[/nq]
He was a trial lawyer. Didn't write text books, didn't produce learned judgements, just stood up in court and tried to look prettier to the jury than the other guy's lawyer.
[nq:2]Even if all you know of the courtroom is the OJ trial, it's obvious that rhetoric and snappy phrasing play a big part.[/nq]
[nq:1]I don't hear 'less' as snappier than 'fewer'.[/nq]
Then you don't hear the resonance I referred to.
[nq:2]I didn't know that JG had an 'advanced degree'. When did he get that?[/nq]
[nq:1]Surely a Juris Doctor qualifies as an advanced degree.[/nq]
He went to Ole Miss & graduated with a standard degree - Juris Doctor is what tens of thousands of US law school graduates receive every year. Despite the name, it isn't a doctoral degree (no thesis, no dissertation) but they like the way it sounds. You weren't confusing it with Scientum Juris Doctor, were you? Since no-one leftpondially qualifies as a lawyer with anything less than Juris Doctor, I would say it's a standard, not an advanced, degree.
[nq:2]However, if a character can wielderfight his penisolate war I ... phrase and pushing it a little further down the crapper.[/nq]
[nq:1]It's also the editor that should be embarrassed.[/nq]
Maybe the editor is good at leaving stuff alone when it makes millions of dollars for the publishing house? Maybe the editor knows no-one ever went broke underestimating public taste? Maybe the editor knows there's no money in being picky? Maybe the editor was hired to make it sell, not to make it right? 'No less' and 'no fewer' are going the same road as 'imply' and 'infer'. Sad but true.
However, in this particular case I have pointed out that 'no less than eight' as a statistical enumeration is within the bounds of what authorities find acceptable.

John Dean
Oxford

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