Changes of meaning. Old English derivations. Old English affixes that we use now. The Celtic, Latin, Scandinavian Influence on English language.-->Borrowings in EnglishOld English words that have undergone the meaning change in New English.

I don't know what purpose this thread was made for, but I'm interested in the historical development of the English language, because I feel the knowledge about it could help us ESL students to understand why English people speaks English the way they are speaking now. Sometimes I feel older forms of English [not necessarily meaning 'Old English'] could be easier to understand than modern English. One of such examples is the messy usage of gerunds and present participles. In older forms of English, the suffix for gerunds was -ung and that for participles was -ende. So we could distinguish a gerund from the corresponding participle quite easily if people continued to keep this distinction until now. Example smokung : gerund (noun); smokende : present participle (1) I am smoking. (OE) I am a-smokung ['a-'='on']. (2) I stopped smoking. (OE) I stopped smokung. (3) I stopped, smoking. (OE) I stopped, smokende. To me it is regretful that English people in the past were not enough diligent to use correctly the old grammar that was quite reasonable and easier to learn for foreigners. paco

Hello Abbie I got the info in OED Gerund -ing The original function of the suffix was to form nouns of action; as ácsung (asking), from ácsian to ask;céapung, -ing (cheaping),;créopung (creeping); gaderung (gathering). These substantives were originally abstract; but even in OE. they often came to express a completed action, a process, habit, or art, as bletsung (blessing), leornung (learning), tídung (tidings), weddung (wedding), and then admitted a plural; sometimes they became concrete, as in eardung (dwelling), offrung (offering). During the ME. period all these uses received greater development, and in the 14th c. the formation became established, esp. in the gerundial use, as an actual or possible derivative of every verb. By later extension, formations of the same kind have been analogically made from substantives (see c, g, below), and, by ellipsis, from adverbs, as innings, offing, outing, homing (homecoming); while nonce-words in -ing are formed freely on words or phrases of many kinds, e.g. oh-ing, hear-hearing, hoo-hooing, pshawing, yo-hoing (calling oh!, hear! hear!, etc.), how-d'ye-doing (saying ‘how do you do?’); ‘I do not believe in all this pinting’ (having pints of beer). Present P -ing suffix of the present participle, and of adjs. thence derived, or so formed; an alteration of the original OE. -ende = OFris., OS. -and, OHG. -ant-i (-ent-i, -ont-i, MHG. -end-e, Ger. -end), ON. -and-i (Sw. -ande, Da. -ende), Goth. -and-s, -and-a, = L. <del>ent</del>, Gr. <del>oms</del>, Skr. <del>ant</del>. Already, in later OE., the ppl. -ende was often weakened to -inde, and this became the regular Southern form of the ending in Early ME. From the end of the 12th c. there was a growing tendency to confuse -inde, phonetically or scribally, with -inge; this confusion is specially noticeable in MSS. written by Anglo-Norman scribes in the 13th c. The final result was the predominance of the form -inge, and its general substitution for -inde in the 14th c., although in some works, as the Kentish Ayenbite of 1340, the pple. still regularly has -inde. In Midland English -ende is frequent in Gower, and occasional in Midland writers for some time later; but the southern -inge, -ynge, -ing, favoured by Chaucer, Hoccleve, and Lydgate, soon spread over the Midland area, and became the Standard English form. The Northern dialect, on the other hand, in England and Scotland, retained the earlier ending in the form -ande, -and, strongly contrasted with the verbal n. in -yng, -ing (-yne, -ene). At the present day the two are completely distinct in Northumberland and the Southern Counties of Scotland, although the general mutescence of final d, and the change of (-IN) to (-In), make the difference in most cases only a vowel one: e.g. ‘a singan' burd’, ‘the singin (-In) o' the burds’, but ‘a gaan bairn’ (a going child), ‘afore gangin' hame’. paco

Ah, thank you. I knew it was all to do with the north/south divide, and the standardisation (which occured later) resulting from printing and the adoption of the southern form, as the language of court. 'a gaan bairn’ (a going child), ‘afore gangin' hame’. This is essentially Scottish, though I don't know what "a going child" is. I am familiar with the Scots 'girn', meaning to cry. Northumberand accent has at least 3 distict forms. In the far north, near the border, it is moore Scottish. Around Morpeth, they speak with a 'Morpesian' accent, the chief distinguishing feature of which is that they roll their 'r's in the back of the throat, similar to the French 'r'. Around Newcastle of course, they speak Geordie - and there is constant debate as to whether this is a dialect or a language! In Newcastle, the Scottish "ganging" = 'gannen' (last syllable = schwa) 'hame’ = 'hyem' 'afor' = affower (schwa) Thus "afower gannen hyem" I suppose, following this, that the Geordie dialect is closer to the OE 'ung' ending. Another very distincitve feature of Geordie is the continued use of 't' to indicate the past participle. Few English words now use this (eg dreamt, slept), but it is not uncommon in Geordie e.g. 'tret' (treated), 'telt' (told). A short Geordie conversation: Now, marra, hoo ye gannen? Canny. Hoos yer fettle? Champion Bonny day the day Give ower, man, yer kidden. It's cowd the day mar. Hoos yower lass? Aye, canny. Ower kid's none su grand but. Aye? wasa marra like? Why man, oot on't pop, tha knaas. Oh aye. He's sackless man. Yous gannen tu the hoppins the neet? Aye, mebees; it'll be canny late but. Aah might could gan the morrer. Aye, well. See yous there. Divvent forgetten mind. Aye. Tarra why. <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

Hello Abbie Geordie, is it a dialect spoken in England's north-east coast? Most of the sentences you put are gibberish to me but some part I can guess. Now, marra, hoo ye gannen? (Now, friend, how you go?) Canny. Hoos yer fettle? (Good. How are you?) Champion (Excellent) Bonny day the day (Nice day, today) Give ower, man, yer kidden. (Give over, man, you're kidding.) It's cowd the day mar. ([It's cowd the day mar]?) Hoos yower lass? (How is your boy?) Aye, canny. Ower kid's none su grand but. (Of course, good. Our child is not such grand though) Aye? wasa marra like? (Really? what so good like?) Why man, oot on't pop, tha knaas. (Why man, out [on't pop], you/they know) Oh aye. He's sackless man. (Oh yes. He's stupid man) Yous gannen tu the hoppins the neet? (You go to the festival near?) Aye, mebees; it'll be canny late but. (Yes, [maybe]: it's a bit late though) Aah might could gan the morrer. (Aha, you may could go tomorrow) Aye, well. See yous there. (Yes, well. See you there) Divvent forgetten mind. ([Shouldn't forget mind]?) Aye. Tarra why. (Yes. Good-bye) paco

Well done Paco, Geordie is a dialect spoken in Newcastle, North of the River Tyne. (The dialect is different south of the river, and changes again when you get to Northumberland. "Hello, mate (or friend) , how are you?" Fine. How are you?" "Excellent" Nice day..... Give over ..... It's cold today. ('mar' has no transltion. It is a word signifying emphasis) "How's you wife?" "She's well, thanks. My younger brother isn't so well, though. Really. What's wrong with him?" "Well, you know, he was out drinking last night" "Oh well. He's stupid." "Are you and your wife going to the fun fair tonight?" ('yous' is plural) Perhaps. I'll be very late though. I might be able to go tomorrow OK. See you all there then. Don't forget, will you? OK. Bye for now. Tarra why. <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

Ahaha, I made a big mistake. 'Lass' is 'girl', not 'boy'. So it should be 'wife'. Anyway, I cannot take the exact sense. It would not be easy for me to talk with people in a bar of Newcastle. paco

Hello Abbie It is nice to hear you live in the northern part of England. I have some troubles about the interpretation of some passages in the Great Curse which was written in 1525 in the Scottish-English language of those days by Gavin Dunbar the Archbishop of Glasgow to condemn the border reiver clans who had continued doing wrongs for three centuries in the regions bordering Scotland and England. The below given are some part extracted from the document and their translation into modern English. The translation was probably made by a writer who published a book about the story of the border reivers. But I feel there are some questionable points in the translation. I would like hear your opinion.. Original text "I denounce, proclamis, and declaris (1)all and sindry the committaris of the said saikles, murthris, slauchteris, brinying, (2)heirchippes, reiffis, thiftis and (3)spulezeis, oppinly apon day licht and under silence of nicht, (4)alswele within temporale landis as kirklandis; (5)togither with thair parakeris, assitaris, supplearis, wittandlie resettaris of thair personis, the gudes reft and stollen be thaim, art or part thereof, and their counsalouris and defendouris of thair evil dedis generalie cursit, (6)waryit, aggregeite and reaggregeite, with the Greit Cursing." A translation I found online "I denounce, proclaim and declare (1)all the committers of the said senseless murders, slaughters, burning, (2)torturing, plundering, raping and (3)pillaging, openly by daylight and under silence of night, (4)even on such peaceful ground as church lands; (5)together with their families, henchmen, suppliers, and willing conspirators who give them refuge, their receivers of goods stolen by them, and any benefit or part thereof, and their counselors and defenders of their evil deeds, generally cursed, (6)denounced, execrated, in sum total, with the Great Cursing." Note and questions: [1] This translation omitted a word 'sindry' in the original. My dictionary (OED) says it is "sundry" in the currently spoken Northumbrian dialect. I think 'all and sundry" is some idiomatic expression meaning "all and each". Is it right? [2] I feel the word 'heirchippes' might mean literally 'cutting hairs'. Is it right? [3] 'Spulezeis' may be an old form 'spoiling' which has an obsolete meaning of pillaging or robbery. [4] Here I feel the translator made a mistranslation. 'Alswele within temporale landis as kirklandis' would be 'within temporal (=secular) lands as well as within church lands'. Could you give me a suggestion about this? [5] About the underlined passage (5), I feel some difference between the original and the translated one. My attempt is "together with their partakers, assistants, supporters, and those who willingly harbor their persons and the goods reft (=robbed of) and stolen by them, whatever sort or whatever part of them (=the goods), and the their counselors and defenders of their evil deeds". How do you think? [6] 'Waryit'='waried'='cursed'. I feel the 'denounced' in the translation is rather redundant. 'Aggregeite, regaggregeite' is 'aggregate and reaggregate'(='collected and recollected into one mass") but I think this phrase would be used as an adverbial phrase. Am I right? paco

Vinn Posted 21 years ago

Linguistics Studies

History of English

Changes of meaning.
Old English derivations.
Old English affixes that we use now.
The Celtic, Latin, Scandinavian Influence on English language.-->Borrowings in English<Old English words that have undergone the meaning change in New English.

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Abbie1948 answered . 21 years ago

Have I missed a thread here? What does this message mean?

Paco2004 answered . 21 years ago

I don't know what purpose this thread was made for, but I'm interested in the historical development of the English language, because I feel the knowledge about it could help us ESL students to understand why English people speaks English the way they are speaking now. Sometimes I feel older forms of English [not necessarily meaning 'Old English'] could be easier to understand than modern English

Abbie1948 answered . 21 years ago

That's a hugh subject, Paco; English is influenced by so many languages! I'm interested in your "ung" and "ende" endings. Where did you find this info?

Paco2004 answered . 21 years ago

Hello Abbie

I got the info in OED

Gerund -ing
The original function of the suffix was to form nouns of action; as ácsung (asking), from ácsian to ask;céapung, -ing (cheaping),;créopung (creeping); gaderung (gathering). These substantives were originally abstract; but even in OE. they often came to express a completed action, a process, habit, or art, as bletsung (bl

Abbie1948 answered . 21 years ago

Ah, thank you. I knew it was all to do with the north/south divide, and the standardisation (which occured later) resulting from printing and the adoption of the southern form, as the language of court.

'a gaan bairn’ (a going child), ‘afore gangin' hame’. This is essentially Scottish, though I don't know what "a going child" is. I am familiar with the Scots 'girn', meaning to cry.

Paco2004 answered . 21 years ago

Hello Abbie

Geordie, is it a dialect spoken in England's north-east coast?
Most of the sentences you put are gibberish to me but some part I can guess.

Now, marra, hoo ye gannen? (Now, friend, how you go?)
Canny. Hoos yer fettle? (Good. How are you?)
Champion (Excellent)
Bonny day the day (Nice day, today)
Give ower, man, yer kidden. (Give over, man,

Abbie1948 answered . 21 years ago

Well done Paco,
Geordie is a dialect spoken in Newcastle, North of the River Tyne. (The dialect is different south of the river, and changes again when you get to Northumberland.

"Hello, mate (or friend) , how are you?"
Fine. How are you?"
"Excellent"
Nice day.....
Give over ..... It's cold today. ('mar' has no transltion. It is a word signifying emphasis)

Paco2004 answered . 21 years ago

Ahaha, I made a big mistake. 'Lass' is 'girl', not 'boy'. So it should be 'wife'.

Anyway, I cannot take the exact sense.
It would not be easy for me to talk with people in a bar of Newcastle.

paco

Abbie1948 answered . 21 years ago

I'm afraid you wouldn't understand a word!

Paco2004 answered . 21 years ago

Hello Abbie

It is nice to hear you live in the northern part of England. I have some troubles about the interpretation of some passages in the Great Curse which was written in 1525 in the Scottish-English language of those days by Gavin Dunbar the Archbishop of Glasgow to condemn the border reiver clans who had continued doing wrongs for three centuries in the regions bordering Scotland

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