Hi, another question from me....

Question

I don't understand this whole passage....

'Sir Pitt had concluded no bargain for the sale of the living of Queen's Crawley; when it should drop, her Ladyhsip (Lady Southdown) proposed to take the patronage into her own hands, and present a you protege to the Rectory; on which subject the diplomatic Mr Pitt (the second) said nothing.'

I understand next to nothing from this passage.

Casi · Accepted Answer

Join the club. It's all very strange.
Here's my stab at it. SMILE

There's this man named Sir Pitt, and he owns an estate-~~I think~~-called Queen's Crawley, and it's apparently for sale. Sir Pitt is not willing to lower the sale price, but if he does, Lady Southdown intends to buy it, and give it to the Rectory/Church as a gift. Sir Pitt's son, Mr Pitt, knew all about this, but has said nothing about it. He's rather a diplomatic fellow doing so, wouldn't you agree?

MrPedantic · Answer

Hello JK and Casi

Here's an alternative version:

'Sir Pitt had not found a buyer for the position of clergyman at Queen's Crawley. Her ladyship therefore stated her intention of choosing the next clergyman herself, once the time came to decide. She hoped to install a young protégé of her own in the post. Pitt (Sir Pitt's son) did not comment on this intention.'

1. 'Living' here means the position of clergyman in a particular area. This position would probably include a house, some land, and some income. In the period during which the novel was set, 'livings' were sometimes allocated by the local land-owner, and could (if the land-owner wished) be bought and sold. This was especially the case if a previous owner of the land had set up a fund to pay the clergyman. (The idea was that the clergyman would pay e.g. £1000 for the living; the living would bring in e.g. £100 pa; so after ten years, he'd start to make a profit.)

In much the same way, commissions in the army and navy were bought and sold at that time.

2. 'when it should drop': I'm not sure what the technical meaning of this would be, in connection with a 'living'. I'm assuming it means 'become available for some reason or other'.

3. The 'young protégé' would be one of Lady Southdown's 'irregular clergy' (see preceding sentence). This would not please the Rector; hence the irony of 'present a young protégé to the Rectory'.

MrP

JKBelieve · Answer

I was wondering how you knew that Lady Southdown had irregular clergymen...

Anyway I have another question...... I still don't understand what you mean by :

'and could (if the land-owner wished) be bought and sold. This was especially the case if a previous owner of the land had set up a fund to pay the clergyman. (The idea was that the clergyman would pay e.g. £1000 for the living; the living would bring in e.g. £100 pa; so after ten years, he'd start to make a profit.) '

so you mean that if the land owner wished it the clergyman could sell it to someone
else? Becuase didn't you say that a clergyman bought that 'living'?

Another thing, who set up the fund to pay the clergyman? The clergyman who was in
the living before? or the land-owner who owned the whole thing before? Oh and by a fund do you mean that the tenants living in the land-owner's land was forced to go that church?

Thanx a lot for your help and Casi thank you as well.

JKBelieve · Answer

Well, '3. The 'young protégé' would be one of Lady Southdown's 'irregular clergy' (see preceding sentence). This would not please the Rector; hence the irony of 'present a young protégé to the Rectory'. '

Why does Pitt have to worry about a clergyman if there is a Rector already? Is it to weaken the Rector? Oh and is the Rector the clergyman owning the 'living'? Or are they something completely different........

I'm terribly sorry if I'm bothering you with so many questions and I appreciate your helping me.... Thank you very very much.

MrPedantic · Answer

Hello JK

No problem! — I don't have a copy of V. Fair to hand, but will check later and let you know.

MrP

MrPedantic · Answer

Hello JK

At the time the novel is set, priests were appointed by the local bishop. The post of parish priest was called a 'living' or a 'benefice' (or a 'spiritual living').

Each parish had a 'patron', i.e. the party who decided who was to be parish priest.

'Livings' were of two kinds: those whose patron was the church itself, and those whose patron was a local land-owner. By the early 19th century, some two-thirds of parishes were of the latter kind. (It may seem strange that a local land-owner should have power over the choice of priest; but if a land-owner had built a church centuries before, and set up a fund for its maintenance etc., the patronage naturally passed on to those who acquired the land in their turn.)

When a 'living' became vacant (usually because of death, or perhaps because the priest had moved on to another parish), the role of the patron was to 'present' a candidate to the bishop. This was usually a formality; the bishop would almost always accept the candidate.

This is where the cash comes in. The priest was entitled to collect 'tithes' (a kind of tax) from parishioners. Some parishes had extremely wealthy parishioners, so the 'tithes' could amount to a great deal of money.

Consequently, if a land-owner was the patron of a rich parish, he could be persuaded to 'present' you to the bishop (in effect, get you the job) in return for a certain sum of money. Of course, the sum of money you paid would depend on how much the parish was worth in terms of tithes.

In addition, a priest could acquire several parishes, sometimes in completely different parts of the country, if he had powerful friends and plenty of money. It was a little like buying a pension or an annuity: you paid a large sum up front, in return for a guaranteed income.

Not all patrons required money before they would 'present' you, of course. Lady S. in our example wants to install her protégé for non-financial reasons.

The priests tended not to sell livings themselves; but they would sometimes swap. But no doubt where one party swapped a poor parish for a richer one, other inducements to exchange were made.

The Church of England was pretty thoroughly reformed during the 19th century, which put a stop to the practice.

In our example, 'Rectory' means the position, rather than the place where the rector lived. 'To present to the Rectory' therefore means 'to recommend a candidate for Rector to the bishop'. ('Rector' here is another word for parish priest.)

It's a very long time since I read Vanity Fair, and I find I can remember very little of it. So the context here is mysterious to me. I presume the discussion relates to who will succeed the current Rector ('when it will drop'); the thought of its being one of Lady S's protégés (her irregular clergy) would no doubt displease Revd and Mrs Bute. But as I say, I don't really remember the details; you've probably got a better idea of the plot at this point than me!

Let me know if anything is unclear—

MrP

Casi · Answer

Very nice, indeed. Thank you. SMILE

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