He insisted on my/me singing a song.

Question

He insisted on my/me singing a song.Would you use "my' or "me" in the above? Thanks.

BarbaraPA · Accepted Answer

Singing is a gerund, a noun, so it takes the possessive my.

Angliholic · Answer

Grammar GeekSinging is a gerund, a noun, so it takes the possessive my.

Thanks, GG.

But I am under the impression that some native speakers may use "me" in this similar context.

NewPhilologist · Answer

You're quite likely to hear some native speakers say that, but especially in writing, stick with the possessive my instead of me.

Angliholic · Answer

NewPhilologistYou're quite likely to hear some native speakers say that, but especially in writing, stick with the possessive my instead of me.

Thanks, Philologist.

By the way, are there any differences bewteen you and a linguist?

Cool Breeze · Answer

Grammar GeekSinging is a gerund, a noun, so it takes the possessive my.

Hi GG

Do you also say:
I insist on English's being spoken?

Cheers
CB

BarbaraPA · Answer

No, but I'd say "I insisted on his speaking English."

Cool Breeze · Answer

Grammar GeekSinging is a gerund, a noun, so it takes the possessive my.

This is rather peculiar, I think. I have encountered the same thing on these forums many times. Native speakers say: "A gerund is a noun." Do they teach it that way in American schools and universities? Grammatical terminology varies greatly from country to country but I have yet to meet a grammarian who says a noun can have an object:

I insisted on his speaking English.

Furthermore, all nouns can have an adjectival attribute; in other words, we can put an adjective before them:

He likes old books.
Merry old England fascinates me.
Little Mary wanted to go out.
Useful information was given to everybody.

So, if gerunds are full-fledged nouns, the following is correct:

Correct speaking English is easy.

Few consider it correct. A gerund is neither a noun nor a verb; it's a cross between them. It has some qualities characteristic of nouns and some that are characteristic of verbs. It resembles a verb in that it can take an object, for instance.

Therefore, "I insist on him speaking English" and "I insist on his speaking English" are equally grammatical. In the first sentence, him is used due to the influence of the preposition on, which is normal English grammar. In the second sentence his is used because speaking is a noun to an extent, even though it's not a complete noun. It has long been customary to consider possessive forms (my, his, our) of personal pronouns better than the object forms (me, him, us) as subjects of a gerund. It also used to be common to consider the basic or common form of other words better in this position:

I insist on John Smith speaking English. (Also: John Smith's)
I insist on everybody speaking English. (Rarely: everybody's)

In the past 30 or so years I have noticed a tendency in American magazines and newspapers to prefer the genitive even in cases where it sounds and looks ludicrous. I assume this can be ascribed to rising standards in education. Nevertheless, there has never been a grammatical justification to consider one of the alternatives better. The tendency to consider the possessive form the better seems to me to stem from grammatical ignorance rather than a good knowledge of it. There is no grammatical or historical justification for preferring either form.

Cheers
CB

BarbaraPA · Answer

You're right - gerunds are not nouns, but rather they act like nouns in many situations.

As you know, without an English Academy, language will evolve along, and eventually what enough speakers use in any given context becomes the correct form.

(For your last example, I'd rewrite, by the way. I insist that everybody speak English.)

Cool Breeze · Answer

Grammar Geek(For your last example, I'd rewrite, by the way. I insist that everybody speak English.)

Sounds perfectly acceptable even in Helsinki English!

Have a Velko on me,
CB

Hoa Thai · Answer

Hi folks,

This morning (the morning in ), I read the great debate on the topic ‘gerund vs. present participle' from many excellent participants. I really do not dare to touch that subject for I know my limitation But here is my question:

Why can’t I find insist on somebody doing something usage in any dictionaries? I tried Longman Dictionary of Modern English, The American Heritage Dictionary, Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary, and Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary to no avail.

All I found were these two usages of insist on:

1. insist on: to say firmly and often that something is true, especially when other people think it may not be true.

She kept insisting on her innocence.

2. insist on doing something: to keep doing something, especially something that is inconvenient or annoying OR to be firm in a demand or course; refuse to yield.

She will insist on washing her hair just when I want to have a bath.

When they give an example ‘with somebody’, they always show: insist that you / he / she / etc…

If we apply the two available definitions, wouldn’t ‘insist on me (doing)’ be wrong? Maybe not 'wrong', but a hot potato!

How about ‘insist on my singing’? Could we treat ‘my singing’ in the same fashion as ‘doing' in the above definition? If so, Grammar Geek’s suggestion must be correct. Otherwise, we must offer an explanation why that is not.

He insisted on my/me singing a song.

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