Have + something + Past Participle

Question

People transported loads of camping necessities to a little island from a boat through waist-deep water. The job just finished only seconds ago. You are a college student on vacation, fresh out of grueling finals, lying sprawled on the seats at the front of the boat, being lazy.

You :I'm on vacation. I feel no need to volunteer my services. Everyone should be a slacker now and then. As Confucius once said, 'He who does nothing is the one who does nothing.
Your friend: Did Confucius really say that?
You: No, but who cares? The point is, they had it handled, and most likely they found some sort of self-satisfaction in their industriousness. Who am I to deprive them of that?

It may be just my construal, or misconstrual, of the 'have + something + past participle' in that particular instance that's hindering my full grasp of the phrase there, but somehow had it handled sounds like the distant past. I think you would naturally like to mention how they most likely feel 'now.' Normally in AmE the simple past can oftentimes substitute for the present perfect, which refers to time up to the present. But this only applies to action verbs, or so I think, and 'have' is often used to impart a sense of state.

I wonder if this construct with 'had' could deliver a sense of achievement the effect of which continues up to the present?

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

It is simple past, including that of 'seconds ago'; the speaker of course considers the task fully completed, hence no relation to the present. They had it under control; they completed it successfully.

Andriy Lapin · Answer

HSS,

'had it handled' is an example of a verb phrase with a causative use of have in the past. Since the meaning is causative, it is regarded as dynamic by most grammarians, or, in other words, using your term, have in this particular example is seen as an action verb (although dynamic verbs is a bit broader category). Therefore, we have no reason not to regard this use as a usual substitution of present perfective in American English.

Respectfully, Gleb Chebrikoff.

Mister Micawber · Answer

Sorry, Gleb, but I can see no rationale for associating causative 'have' with the present perfect. Compare these examples:

I had the locks checked in 1996
They will have the job handled by next week.

Moreover, as I have already indicated, the speaker in this dialogue has strong reasons for considering the handling a past, finished event and expressing that very point to his interlocutor.

Andriy Lapin · Answer

Mister Micawber, first and foremost, thank you for our comment.

First, let me clarify the rationale behind using the term 'causative have' in conjunction with the present perfective. Have, being causative, is dynamic in meaning, i.e., it is an action verb, which justifies the use of have in simple past as a substitution of present perfective in American English - that is exactly what HSS was wondering about when he wrote: 'Normally in AmE the simple past can oftentimes substitute for the present perfect, which refers to time up to the present. But this only applies to action verbs, or so I think, and 'have' is often used to impart a sense of state.' As you correctly pointed out, causative have is not limited to the perfective aspect.

Secondly, HSS was wondering 'if this construct with 'had' could deliver a sense of achievement the effect of which continues up to the present?' As we know, the present perfective differs from the simple past in relating a past event/state to a present time orientation. There are cases where both verb forms are applicable, although far from being interchangeable. Consider, for example, the following:

Where did you put my purse?
Where have you put my purse?

These sentences have the same purpose, but the latter apparently concentrates on the purse's present whereabouts. In the text that we discuss there is a curious sentence: 'The job just finished only seconds ago.' As you have indicated, it contains a point-in-time adverbial 'seconds ago'. Meanwhile, it also has 'just' as another adverbial, and, as we know, present perfective underlies the tendency to co-occur with time adverbials such as just and recently (this use is technically known as recency connotation). Co-occurrence of two different adverbials makes the analysis of the sentence and the situation in general more complicated, as often happens with speech situations. Therefore, interpretation of the action in question as past without current relevance is open to discussion. I suppose this largely depends on the viewpoint of the speaker. Meanwhile, there is no doubt that the verb phrase 'had it handled' is formally in the simple past, but it can be seen as a realisation of either past tense simple aspect or present tense perfective aspect.

I hope this will clarify my viewpoint on the subject.

Thanks again for your comment.

Respectfully, Gleb Chebrikoff.

Mister Micawber · Answer

it is an action verb, which justifies the use of have in simple past as a substitution of present perfective in American English

Please explain why this might be so. I see no relationship between the two uses.

The sentence under consideration could have been cast in the perfect if the writer had so wished– they have had it handled for the past five minutes; they had had it handled when the ogre suddenly appeared.

The rest of your post merely explains the present perfect aspect, which is not under discussion.

HSS · Answer

Thanks, MM. Thanks, Gleb.

Gleb_Chebrikoff ... in other words, using your term, have in this particular example is seen as an action verb (although dynamic verbs is a bit broader category).

Hi, Gleb.

In my example, the agent of the action is 'they.'

You: No, but who cares? The point is, they had it handled, and most likely they found some sort of self-satisfaction in their industriousness. Who am I to deprive them of that?

What about the following sentences with 'have' or 'had,' where the agents of the verbs, 'serviced' and 'stolen,' are somebody other than the subject of the sentence? Are the 'have' and 'had' also dynamic verbs?

1) I must have my car serviced at a garage.

2) We had our computer stolen.

CalifJim · Answer

HSSThe point is, they had it handled, and most likely they found some sort of self-satisfaction in their industriousness. ...
had it handled sounds like the distant past. I think you would naturally like to mention how they most likely feel 'now.'I see why you consider it past (had, found). It is past.

The author of the passage does not agree with you about the naturalness of mentioning their present feelings. He obviously does not want to mention how they feel now, but how they felt then, in the past. And it's not just had, but found, later in the sentence, that confirms that he is definitely talking about something in the past. Anyway, if, as it seems, "they" are the ancient Chinese who lived at the time of Confucius, it is impossible to say how they feel now because they are all dead.

CJ

Mister Micawber · Answer

Jim, for me 'they' points to the 'people [who] transported loads of camping necessities' while the college boy speaking lazily looked on.  What do you think about that?

HSS · Answer

Mister MicawberJim, for me 'they' points to the 'people [who] transported loads of camping necessities' while the college boy speaking lazily looked on. What do you think about that?

Well, that's been my understanding, too, Jim.

Hiro

HSS · Answer

HSSWhat about the following sentences with 'have' or 'had,' where the agents of the verbs, 'serviced' and 'stolen,' are somebody other than the subject of the sentence? Are the 'have' and 'had' also dynamic verbs?

1) I must have my car serviced at a garage.

2) We had our computer stolen.

Gleb, on second thought, I now think I should ask if the 'have' and 'had' are also action verbs, rather than dynamic verbs, to clear my fog in mind.

Hiro

Have + something + Past Participle

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